GSP vs. Anderson Silva, both at 185lbs?

[ninjastix]

Originally Posted by AJL416AZ

GSP is not a world class grappler, because he doesnt look good on the ground against proven world class grapplers

I couldn't disagree more. Sherk, Hughes, Karo, and Kos are all well documented and decorated grapplers, to a lesser extent so are Mayhem Miller and BJpenn (I only include Penn to a less extent because he looked out of shape when he fought Gsp).

Each one was brought down and controlled by Gsp in each fight. It's never been an issue of lay and pray either, once on the mat Georges works submission attempts, ground and pound, and is always looking to improve positioning.

I cannot see how it's possible to question his ground ability. The first fight with Hughes was a mistake by Georges due to his admitted hero worship of Hughes (he's actually smiling at the end of the fight when he loses). But look at the take down defense and the fact he took Hughes down in the second fight, not to mention he pounded him out after Matt's takedown attempt caused him to take a leg to the face.

But we did get to see what a motivated and mentally tough GSP is capable of vs Hughes and Kos. Which is one-sided domination both standing and on the ground.

[twankydawg]

Originally Posted by ninjastix

I couldn't disagree more. Sherk, Hughes, Karo, and Kos are all well documented and decorated grapplers, to a lesser extent so are Mayhem Miller and BJpenn (I only include Penn to a less extent because he looked out of shape when he fought Gsp).

Each one was brought down and controlled by Gsp in each fight. It's never been an issue of lay and pray either, once on the mat Georges works submission attempts, ground and pound, and is always looking to improve positioning.

I cannot see how it's possible to question his ground ability. The first fight with Hughes was a mistake by Georges due to his admitted hero worship of Hughes (he's actually smiling at the end of the fight when he loses). But look at the take down defense and the fact he took Hughes down in the second fight, not to mention he pounded him out after Matt's takedown attempt caused him to take a leg to the face.

But we did get to see what a motivated and mentally tough GSP is capable of vs Hughes and Kos. Which is one-sided domination both standing and on the ground.

What do you call what he did against a C grade grappler in Koscheck, he tried a lame ass Kimura attempt and couldn't pull it out because he had crappy positioning. The rest of the fucking match was Lay and fucking Pray.

A motivated and mentally tough GSP didn't want to stand with Koscheck and was content with a takedown/LnP strategy to eek out a decision.

You people are fucking crazy if you think GSP could handle a guy like Anderson at 185. GSP might have a chance against someone like a Jason Mcdonald but not Anderson Silva.

[Dork8503]

Originally Posted by ninjastix

I couldn't disagree more. Sherk, Hughes, Karo, and Kos are all well documented and decorated grapplers, to a lesser extent so are Mayhem Miller and BJpenn (I only include Penn to a less extent because he looked out of shape when he fought Gsp).

Each one was brought down and controlled by Gsp in each fight. It's never been an issue of lay and pray either, once on the mat Georges works submission attempts, ground and pound, and is always looking to improve positioning.

I cannot see how it's possible to question his ground ability. The first fight with Hughes was a mistake by Georges due to his admitted hero worship of Hughes (he's actually smiling at the end of the fight when he loses). But look at the take down defense and the fact he took Hughes down in the second fight, not to mention he pounded him out after Matt's takedown attempt caused him to take a leg to the face.

But we did get to see what a motivated and mentally tough GSP is capable of vs Hughes and Kos. Which is one-sided domination both standing and on the ground.

Kos is not a grappler, he is a wrestler huge difference.

He never controlled hughes on the ground or Sherk. He tkoed both of them, when he dropped them he finished them, when he was on the ground with hughes he was submitted.

[ninjastix]

You're looking a who's who list of ground fighters that have been completely unable to impose their will on GSP...

The only fighter that has been able to expose St. Pierre's biggest weakness, which is his mental toughness, was Serra and he did that standing.

That still doesn't address the clear success he's had taking ground fighters down and keeping them there.

He's terrific at capitalizing on what he sets up with strikes and he's done it against the best his division has to offer.

As much as I love Anderson Silva, he's a ground fighter/grappler second. And doesn't defend the take down particularly well. If you stand with him you go to sleep, so why stand?


As far as the lay and pray comment goes...

there's a big difference between having an armlock and not finishing and doing nothing whatsoever.... and it still doesn't explain the beating Kos took third round that make his face look extra lumpy post fight.

[AJL416AZ]

Originally Posted by ninjastix

I couldn't disagree more. Sherk, Hughes, Karo, and Kos are all well documented and decorated grapplers, to a lesser extent so are Mayhem Miller and BJpenn (I only include Penn to a less extent because he looked out of shape when he fought Gsp).

Each one was brought down and controlled by Gsp in each fight. It's never been an issue of lay and pray either, once on the mat Georges works submission attempts, ground and pound, and is always looking to improve positioning.

I cannot see how it's possible to question his ground ability. The first fight with Hughes was a mistake by Georges due to his admitted hero worship of Hughes (he's actually smiling at the end of the fight when he loses). But look at the take down defense and the fact he took Hughes down in the second fight, not to mention he pounded him out after Matt's takedown attempt caused him to take a leg to the face.

But we did get to see what a motivated and mentally tough GSP is capable of vs Hughes and Kos. Which is one-sided domination both standing and on the ground.

all the guys you mentioned are world class WRESTLERS, not world class GRAPPLERS.

the only documented and proven world class grappler of the group is BJ Penn, who won the Mundials a long time ago. everyone else is just an MMA guy without any big wins in submission grappling or BJJ. (the big ones like the NAGA, Worlds, Abu Dhabi, the Mundials, etc.)

Karo has an extensive judo background, and all of his coaches have raved on his abilities, but he can't finish watching a commercial, let alone finish anyone on the ground

[sousuke22]

Originally Posted by AJL416AZ

all the guys you mentioned are world class WRESTLERS, not world class GRAPPLERS.

the only documented and proven world class grappler of the group is BJ Penn, who won the Mundials a long time ago. everyone else is just an MMA guy without any big wins in submission grappling or BJJ. (the big ones like the NAGA, Worlds, Abu Dhabi, the Mundials, etc.)

Karo has an extensive judo background, and all of his coaches have raved on his abilities, but he can't finish watching a commercial, let alone finish anyone on the ground

I seem to recall Karo having one hell of a war on the ground with Nick Diaz, who'se surely considered a high level grappler.

[Afro]

Originally Posted by sousuke22

I seem to recall Karo having one hell of a war on the ground with Nick Diaz, who'se surely considered a high level grappler.

High level grappler by who? Nick Diaz is a very good grappler, but High Level is an over-exaggeration.. he has very good BJJ off his back but to consider him a high level grappler with the Penns, Sakurais, Nogs, Werdums, etc is an over-exaggeration.

[ninjastix]

So I'm still confused by all this...

Are you then equating Silva's ground game to a level equal to or higher than say Nog or Penn?...

Because all being said and considered, I don't see Georges getting caught on the ground by Silva at all, and if that's the point of contention I'm even more confused than we I started posting in this thread...

If the fight stays standing I give every advantage to Silva under the sun, that's even with GSP's excellent striking, but on the mat, I got GSP out working Silva into a TKO or submission...

All things being hypothetical, I understand the points of view being expressed, but I can't see how it can be said that GSP is over-rated or unproven on the ground...

[AJL416AZ]

im not comparing them together. i just have never seen GSP post up and blast anyone that was a black belt in BJJ. he kicks the shit out of wrestlers normally, see Koscheck, Sherk, and Hughes. but against great grapplers, even if he's on the top, he just gets tied up or threatened with subs, and is unable to really hurt them because they are just too good off their backs.

unlike most, i dont see Anderson subbing GSP. but as ive seen time and time again, its hard to do shit to a healthy Anderson. he just wraps guys up and they cant do shit. then he gets stood up, and its his time. and 5 rounds against the Spider, unless you have chin like Dan Henderson, you're going to get knocked out. thats how i see it.

[ninjastix]

Originally Posted by AJL416AZ

unlike most, i dont see Anderson subbing GSP. but as ive seen time and time again, its hard to do shit to a healthy Anderson. he just wraps guys up and they cant do shit.

And the only reason I pick GSP in all this is because no one in the MW division can match his explosiveness in terms of getting inside and taking someone off their feet.

Now I see where this is a concern with many other fighters who get caught in that clinch, but I don't see Georges getting stuck there, he just has uncanny speed and agility; the real question would be just how strong is he no?

Does he have the raw power to pull down the taller and heavier fighter... I think my standing in all this is I assume he can...