Ernesto Hoost better than Cro Cop?

[Afro]

Originally Posted by valheruking

I really dont understand the Michael McDonald love on some forums, he beat Cro Cop, so what? ,he never really achieved anything in K1, I would have thought someone like Jerome Le Banner was a much better prospect for a successful crossover if he took it seriously years ago when CC and Hunt were training, its all opinion anyway i guess.

He achieved more then CC did

[valheruking]

Eh, how? Cro Cop is a k1 gp finalist which automatically means McDonald never achieved anything higher than Cro Cop did, add to that the fact that Cro Cop beat some good opponents and McDonald lost to just about every good one he fought and i cant see an arguement for McDonald having achieved more than CC.

[Dork8503]

I sit an read on this forum an read throw a lot of the threads but when i see you guys talking about the best kickboxers in the world why do you only mention k-1 kickboxers? There are other kickboxing orgs out their.

Is it that some of you have never seen anything other then k-1, or is k-1 where the best fighters go. I was looking at their records an not many of them fought out side of k-1 so idk but to me that does not make them the best when their are like 4 or 5 other kickboxing orgs out their.

What about Rob Kaman, he was one of the best an i don't know if he fought for k-1.

What about Dennis Alexio or that cheesy actor Don the Dragon Wilson. I mean these guys didn't do k-1 but are also greats but no one ever gives them any love. I don't know about Wilson but the others are good.

[Afro]

Originally Posted by valheruking

Eh, how? Cro Cop is a k1 gp finalist which automatically means McDonald never achieved anything higher than Cro Cop did, add to that the fact that Cro Cop beat some good opponents and McDonald lost to just about every good one he fought and i cant see an arguement for McDonald having achieved more than CC.

McDonald has won Tournaments though, CC has no titles whatsoever.. he came on strong near the end of his K-1 career (not saying its officially over) but before then he wasnt much at all.. he was basically Michael McDonald before CC beat Bonjasky, Hunt, Sapp, etc after McDonald DOMINATED him. There both 2nd tier in my eye, but atleast McDonald has won something major.

[valheruking]

Originally Posted by Dork8503

I sit an read on this forum an read throw alot of the threads but when i see you guys talking about the best kickboxers in the world why do you only mention k-1 kickboxers? There are other kickboxing orgs out their.

Is it that some of you have never seen anything other then k-1, or are k-1 huggers, or is k-1 where the best fighters go. I was looking at their records an not many of them fought out side of k-1 so idk but to me that does not make them the best when their are like 4 or 5 other kickboxing orgs out their.

What about Rob Kaman, he was one of the best an i dont know if he fought for k-1.

What about Dennis Alexio or that cheesy actor Don the Dragon Wilson. I mean these guys didnt do k-1 but are also greats but no one ever gives them any love. I dont know about Wilson but the others are good.

Its hard enough to get people to talk about k1 never mind some org they've never heard of, but you're right there are good fighters outside of k1, Tyrone Spong is a good kickboxer that isnt in k1, but they are currently working on signing him, hell he beat Kaoklai Kaennorsing who is a decent fighter from k1 and he helped Fedor train Muay Thai.

The Showtime events in Europe have many good fighters, Gago Drago one particular good fighter of theirs came over to sign with K1 and thats where he fights now (you will see a pattern here).

There are also many good Thai fighters, that fight in Thai orgs in Thailand, but with k1 having signed Buakaw and Yodsanklai, they have 2 of their best anyway.

There were some good kickboxing orgs in Australia, but one of their standout fighters was Mike Zambidis, and now hes in k1.
There is also japanese Shootboxing orgs, but with k1 having Andy Souwer and the likes of Hiroki Shishido cming over every now and then, it really is a case of k1 signing up every fighter that gets known from a certain org somewhere in the world, they have some really good scouts that work for them for this purpose.
So you see altough there are obviously great fighters who have never been in k1, altough many have as thats where the best get attracted to for the big money, but i cant see a conversation springing about Showtime or some other org in a forum that is pretty much dead anyways and the discussion usually involves the most well known and popular org k1.

[valheruking]

Originally Posted by Black Man

McDonald has won Tournaments though, CC has no titles whatsoever..

What are titles though?, im sure Cro Cop won some shitty title back in Europe as did McDonald in US, trust me any titles McDonald won are nothing more than glorified qualifiers for the world gp, where as you know, he never achieved anything. "K1 gp in las vegas champion", give me a break all that is is a qualifier for the world gp, there are stages like that all over the world, Korea, Japan, Holland etc, Yoshihiro Sato has been the "K1 in Japan champion" i dont know how many times, but he never does anything in the final elimination against guys like Buakaw, Masato etc, this is also the case with McDonald he won qualifiers to the mainstage where he did nothing, Cro Cop qualified then beat good opponents to earn his automatic place in the world gp, and rightfully so as he went on to lose a split decision to Hoost in the finals.

Originally Posted by Black Man

he came on strong near the end of his K-1 career (not saying its officially over) but before then he wasnt much at all

I dont understand this at all as Cro Cop had already beaten Jerome LeBanner, Mike Bernardo, Musashi, Sam Greco, Glaube Feitosa and Peter Aerts (thats just picking the best) before he lost a 1:24 tko to McDonald and giving Cro Cops habit of losing suprisingly every now and then (Randleman,Gonzaga) i can see how it happened.

Originally Posted by Black Man

CC beat Bonjasky, Hunt, Sapp, etc after McDonald DOMINATED him.

This just further proves that Cro Cop was more consistent and fought better fighters than McDonald, as if you want to look up McDonalds record before or after he beat Mirko

1 - he isnt fighting the same level of competition.
2 - if he is, he isnt beating them.

Originally Posted by Black Man

There both 2nd tier in my eye, but atleast McDonald has won something major.

Again i would like you to point me to anything other than a qualifier to a tournament where Cro Cop actually reached the finals

[Afro]

McDonald has won the NA GP twice, and the USA GP thats more then CC.. its nothing great, but its a helluva lot better then what CC has.. I just dont weigh the head to heads as much as I do the tournaments, cuz in K-1 you almost always have fighters fighting eachother more then once, and the outcome isnt always the same... still if were talking McDonald vs CC.. then it would be McDonald's win over CC, plus his GP wins vs CC's wins over other K-1 fighters that arent Michael McDonald, they may be better then him but there different styles, different fighters and overall.. CC wasnt past his prime or anything when McDonald tooled him.. im sure the outcome may be different if they had a rematch but whos to tell? I think if McDonald was in the same boat as CC where as he has no GP wins then ya ok you can argue that the one win McDonald has over CC doesnt make him better.. but hes won GPs, he beat CC.. I think hes better.

[valheruking]

Originally Posted by Black Man

McDonald has won the NA GP twice, and the USA GP thats more then CC.. its nothing great, but its a helluva lot better then what CC has.. I just dont weigh the head to heads as much as I do the tournaments, cuz in K-1 you almost always have fighters fighting eachother more then once, and the outcome isnt always the same... still if were talking McDonald vs CC.. then it would be McDonald's win over CC, plus his GP wins vs CC's wins over other K-1 fighters that arent Michael McDonald, they may be better then him but there different styles, different fighters and overall.. CC wasnt past his prime or anything when McDonald tooled him.. im sure the outcome may be different if they had a rematch but whos to tell? I think if McDonald was in the same boat as CC where as he has no GP wins then ya ok you can argue that the one win McDonald has over CC doesnt make him better.. but hes won GPs, he beat CC.. I think hes better.

I dont think we are ever going to agree on this as we have a fundamental difference in our view of the value of the gps McDonald won, you see 5 time US gp winner, and I see the k1's venture in the US which they decided would serve as the American qualifing stage to reach the world gp, the same one guys like Gary Goodridge and other non factors in the world scene won.

A qualifier Cro Cop didnt have to take part in

A: because theres a European qualifier (which is of a far higher standard than the US one, as are almost all the qualifying stages around the world)

B: because he already beat the world gp Finalist Jerome LeBanner.

C: because he had a wildcard slot available to enter the world gp after he beat some of the top fighters of the time such as Greco and Musashi.


Now while Cro Cop was on this world stage fighting top name fighters, McDonald was stuck back in the US winning qualifiers with no competition just for an opputunity to fight on the stage Cro Cop was already on.

So you see, my point is how can you hold against Cro Cop the fact that McDonald won many meaningless qualifying titles, when Cro Cop was above that ,as he was already fighting in the world gp.

I hope im making it clear, its kinda hard to understand i guess but why would Cro Cop be winning titles like McDonald was, when all the titles Michael had were just to allow him to fight on the sam stage as Cro Cop, just because Cro Cop didnt win a belt on that satge doesnt mean McDonald is a better fighter than Cro Cop because he has several titles of far little value than the one Cro Cop was fightining for, i mean Cro Cop isnt exactly a title winning machine in mma either, he doesnt have a Pride or UFC hw title (he has the gp), but i dont think anyone would argue that hes beaen better fighter than someone like Randleman who ko'd him, and will be remembered as a better fighter than him despite losing to him, this is the same as the Cro Cop/McDonald situation.

[Afro]

Originally Posted by valheruking

I dont think we are ever going to agree on this as we have a fundamental difference in our view of the value of the gps McDonald won, you see 5 time US gp winner, and I see the k1's venture in the US which they decided would serve as the American qualifing stage to reach the world gp, the same one guys like Gary Goodridge and other non factors in the world scene won.

A qualifier Cro Cop didnt have to take part in

A: because theres a European qualifier (which is of a far higher standard than the US one, as are almost all the qualifying stages around the world)

B: because he already beat the world gp Finalist Jerome LeBanner.

C: because he had a wildcard slot available to enter the world gp after he beat some of the top fighters of the time such as Greco and Musashi.


Now while Cro Cop was on this world stage fighting top name fighters, McDonald was stuck back in the US winning qualifiers with no competition just for an opputunity to fight on the stage Cro Cop was already on.

So you see, my point is how can you hold against Cro Cop the fact that McDonald won many meaningless qualifying titles, when Cro Cop was above that ,as he was already fighting in the world gp.

I hope im making it clear, its kinda hard to understand i guess but why would Cro Cop be winning titles like McDonald was, when all the titles Michael had were just to allow him to fight on the sam stage as Cro Cop, just because Cro Cop didnt win a belt on that satge doesnt mean McDonald is a better fighter than Cro Cop because he has several titles of far little value than the one Cro Cop was fightining for, i mean Cro Cop isnt exactly a title winning machine in mma either, he doesnt have a Pride or UFC hw title (he has the gp), but i dont think anyone would argue that hes beaen better fighter than someone like Randleman who ko'd him, and will be remembered as a better fighter than him despite losing to him, this is the same as the Cro Cop/McDonald situation.

Well he did beat Randleman in a rematch, and ill reverse what I was saying earlier.. if McDonald had never beaten CC I dont think by comparison he would be better! but I think there very close in there K-1 careers.. and ya I see what your saying, and CC was competing at a higher level then McDonald but overall I think they were both 2nd tier and close.. and the real diff maker for me is the titles and the win over CC. It wasnt just one hit that put CC away, McDonald put it on him and what I got out of that fight is that McDonald is just a bad matchup for CC but CC is a more dangerous fight for better fighters, style-wise he matches up better but.. vs McDonald I dont think he wins, CC can beat Le Banner, Hunt, Bonjasky.. McDonald cant.. but McDonald can beat CC.. BUT.. with that said I dont think CC stuck around K-1 long enough, and did enough to say well hes better then a guy who TKO'd him.. if he had stuck around im sure he woulda surpassed him I mean after that fight he did have an impressive streak of victories.. but hes still titleless.. hes still only fought those guys once and in K-1 that doesnt seem to be very common at all.

and for the record, I think Hunt would beat CC in a K-1 rematch.

[valheruking]

Okay i think we should agree to disagree because theres no way i can count McDonalds "titles" against Cro Cop, if anything i would count them against McDonald, as top level fighters shouldnt have to win 5 qualifiers to get there place in the world gp, you book pretty much a permanent spot as long as you do anything worthwhile while your there, and the only claim to fame McDonald has is Cro Cop, futher proving Cro Cops superior level of competition.
The only thing i can definatively put to rest the debate of whos better, is simply, take a look at their records man, Cro Cop beat some of k1's best fighters, McDonald beat some fellow qualifiers, and the only top ones he beat were Feitosa and Cro Cop, if your pushing it you could include Rick Roufus, but not many would agree.