The Gracie 'Watermelon Juice'

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by The Sundance Kid

I can't blame them, I try to make as much money as possible my self.

I agree to an extent, but I think they've gone overboard. BJJ is like religion to many people, with as much (if not more) honor in their trade than anything I can think of. And they're using GJJ as a platform to pimp their melon bags? This is probably why the Gracie's are resented in quite a few circles.... or it could just be jealousy.

[Noob]

Originally Posted by g'nightXX

I agree to an extent, but I think they've gone overboard. BJJ is like religion to many people, with as much (if not more) honor in their trade than anything I can think of. And they're using GJJ as a platform to pimp their melon bags? This is probably why the Gracie's are resented in quite a few circles.... or it could just be jealousy.

No, I agree. I don't think any of the Gracies are hurting for money or a job. Hell, just having the name Gracie is more or less a guarantee that you can open up a school somewhere and do at least okay for yourself.


I think Rorion set a bad precedent with some of his early dealings in the US, and the Gracie 'melon bag' is just a sad tribute to what commercialization is doing to a great legacy. Money goes to most people's heads regardless of where they're from. The Gracies don't appear to be much different. I like to think I would have more sense than this, but who is to say I would. Either way, it's sad.

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by Noob

No, I agree. I don't think any of the Gracies are hurting for money or a job. Hell, just having the name Gracie is more or less a guarantee that you can open up a school somewhere and do at least okay for yourself.


I think Rorion set a bad precedent with some of his early dealings in the US, and the Gracie 'melon bag' is just a sad tribute to what commercialization is doing to a great legacy. Money goes to most people's heads regardless of where they're from. The Gracies don't appear to be much different. I like to think I would have more sense than this, but who is to say I would. Either way, it's sad.

Exactly. But they've done a great job of convincing a lot of people that their Gracie Jui Jitsu is superior to regular BJJ lol. I've seen several people on here talking about Royce as one of the best BJJ guys in the world, and it makes me laugh really. Has he ever won anything in an Elite BJJ tourney?

Is their a side of the Gracie family that doesn't agree with these things? Or are they all chasing the dollar? I know there's a rift in the family somewhere, but I figured you would know more about that than me. I wonder if this prostitution (I love using this since Filho did) is a reason for the family split.

[Noob]

Originally Posted by g'nightXX

Is their a side of the Gracie family that doesn't agree with these things? Or are they all chasing the dollar? I know there's a rift in the family somewhere, but I figured you would know more about that than me. I wonder if this prostitution (I love using this since Filho did) is a reason for the family split.

There have been rifts in the Gracie family since long before they came to the US, but from what I understand they became more pronounced when they began leaving Brazil.


Rorion came to the US with either another Gracie or a friend of the family, I can't remember which. He was long reputed to have been something of a scheming businessman, or to have a vision for the future (depends on whose story you listen to). He came to the US and began marketing GJJ.


The story gets really long, and has a lot of small details with particular relationships between individual family members of the Gracie family. Rorion wanted to set up some good advertising for BJJ, and particularly planned on associating BJJ as a creation solely of his family. Hence 'Gracie Jiu-Jitsu'. This idea was where the UFC came from. It was essentially a partnership between Rorion and some American businessmen, and designed as an infomercial for GJJ.






Rorion planned the tournament out specifically to highlight Royce's skills. The competitors were handpicked, their resumes bloated and lied about, and stacked the tournament brackets specifically with the intent of giving Royce specific opponents. They avoided wrestlers, and anyone with a legitimate BJJ background, as these were believed to have the greatest chance of beating Royce.


Royce was chosen for the UFC partly because of his relationship with Rorion. I don't know what the relationship was like between Rorion and Royler, but I've heard suggestions that Royler was just too small and they didn't want to risk him. I'm not sure if I buy that, but what is clear is that Rickson was not chosen on purpose. Rickson would be the natural choice for a competition like the UFC, but he and Rorion did not get along. They had a strained relationship that had its roots in Brazil, but it got worse when they came to the US.


Rickson ran a school in California, and had initially opened it as a branch of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. The version of the story that I've heard is that Rorion had trademarked the name 'Gracie Jiu-Jitsu' and had all rights to the use of the name. He essentially informed Rickson that he either had to pay him for using the name on his school, or change the name. Rickson has a legendary temper and did not take this very well, and this became one large issue in a long line of problem between the two of them.


It's easy to simplify an issue like that, but the Gracie's, and Rickson in particular, took their Jiu-Jitsu very seriously. There was the feeling that Rorion was out for himself above the family, and that he would take legal action against fellow family members for his own benefit. There was also a language barrier, as not all of the Gracies spoke English well when they came. Rorion did speak English well, and there are stories of Rorion putting family members in awkward positions, and lying in relation to them, in ways that took advantage of the fact that they did not speak English. One story has Rorion 'translating' for family members, but blatantly mis-translating what they said for his own benefit.


There are also other rifts. That between Carlos and Helio, differing philosophies about what BJJ should be and how it should be done. Carlos and Helio had a famous disagreement about the place of strength in BJJ. Helio felt that teaching or placing importance on strength was a bastardization of BJJ, while Carlos was one of the first Gracies to include physical conditioning in his teachings. Small things like this become very big things when it's your entire life.











That's a bit of what I know about it. It's hard to go into all of it without having this quickly become a novel. That's a very short dose of some of the basic issues from within the Gracie family. Hope it more or less sheds some light on stuff.

[willieshatner]

as stated above, this is the sort of thing that gives the Gracies a bad name. it's Rorion's doing. he's gone over the top with merchandising and whatnot he has taken promotion too far IMO. he sort of "went Hollywood" on the family

not to sound like a nuthugger but I doubt you'll see Renzo, Royler, or Rickson get involved with this sort of thing. Rickson should kick his ass, LOL

[Noob]

Originally Posted by willieshatner

as stated above, this is the sort of thing that gives the Gracies a bad name. it's Rorion's doing. he's gone over the top with merchandising and whatnot he has taken promotion too far IMO. he sort of "went Hollywood" on the family

not to sound like a nuthugger but I doubt you'll see Renzo, Royler, or Rickson get involved with this sort of thing. Rickson should kick his ass, LOL

Agreed. All of them have commercialized themselves to some degree, but some of that is just good business and a desire to make a life for themselves. I would do not different I'm sure.


Rorion is in another world though. He's been far-and-away the most commercialized and business-centric of the Gracies. I'm sure he's very wealthy for it, but there have also been strains on his relationship with the famil as well.

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by Noob

Agreed. All of them have commercialized themselves to some degree, but some of that is just good business and a desire to make a life for themselves. I would do not different I'm sure.


Rorion is in another world though. He's been far-and-away the most commercialized and business-centric of the Gracies. I'm sure he's very wealthy for it, but there have also been strains on his relationship with the famil as well.

Thanks for the rundown man. I knew it was something about Rorion & Rickson, and Helio & Carlos but I didn't know the reasons.

Rickson would have made the other guys in the UFC look like kids. Royce ranks what, like 8th in the Gracies practicing today?

[Noob]

Originally Posted by g'nightXX

Thanks for the rundown man. I knew it was something about Rorion & Rickson, and Helio & Carlos but I didn't know the reasons.

Rickson would have made the other guys in the UFC look like kids. Royce ranks what, like 8th in the Gracies practicing today?

I'm not even sure anymore. Royce was never the best in the family. Royler has always been better at BJJ from what I understand, but is obviously smaller than Royce. Rickson is without question the most accomplished and universally recognized of the Gracies, and likely the best among all of them.


Rickson is rumored to be fighting Sakuraba sometime in the spring of 2008.

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by Noob

Rickson is rumored to be fighting Sakuraba sometime in the spring of 2008.

too late but i'll take it.

[ufobydeath]

Originally Posted by g'nightXX

too late but i'll take it.

Yeah, that fight should've happened around 2000... still, it'll probably be worth watching