i wash my hands of him.

[AJL416AZ]

this shit is ridiculous

OMG, FRANK TOTALLY COULD KO RENZO WHEN HE WAS UNDER RENZO, WHO PASSED GUARD 4 TIMES. he lost knee to belly positioning 3 times, side mount 3-4 times, and half guard multiple times. in 1.5 rounds.

the frank nuthugging is ridiculous, especially for a guy who just fucking cheated

[Bullock]

Frank Shamrock has been an ass.

[mauladala]

DUDE!!!! I'm getting fucking pissed off!!! I'm not a Frank nuthugger, but I've watched the fight 4 times now (love my DVR), and Gracie's only offense were 3... YES THREE!!!!... takedowns. Two in the first, one in the second. He attempted to work side control and gain a mount (which he was unable to fucking do!) and that's about it. No he was NOT working elbows in the second round as Cromm said. Frank was the busier fighter both on the feet and on the ground. I love BJJ and I really enjoy watching the Gracies (actually I enjoy any true BJJ fighter; I think their fights are exciting chess matches), butI feel like there are people swinging from Renzo's jewels merely b/c they can't stand Frank. Come on! Most of you would EXCORIATE another fighter who took the abuse Renzo did while laying on top of Frank merely looking for a sub. win. There CERTAINLY was no g&p, and any attempt was nullified by a pretty damn decent ground defense by Frank. If you're pissed b/c a few feel and have said Renzo faked, okay, I understand that. Noone knows whether he did, AND NOONE KNOWS whether he didn't. And yes, Frank fucking cheated when when it comes down to brass tax. But if you're honestly assesing the fight, it's a first round of 10-9 to Shamrock. You can see the second going the same way. Could Renzo have worn him down and caused Frank to make a mistake? Yes. We didn't get a chance to see that, and that's too bad, so fuck Frank for that.

Rufio and Melon have great points and have both broken the fight down very well. I refer to their posts for any future arguments (or Hypergit's posts) because this thread is starting to wear me.

[Frasedog]

Originally Posted by TheBranMan

like most MMA fans from the early UFC days, i got into the sport b/c of royce gracie. but i started to love the sport because of frank shamrock. he was the epitome of what a fighter should and could be. he retired as a champion and went on to do very close to nothing for the next 10 years. beating elvis sinosic and cesar gracie in gracie's MMA debut. there was never a doubt in my mind that he was the best. most people that watched him when he was champ would agree. but since coming back, knocking out cesar gracie, he was victim to a lot of criticism. saying he's ducking anyone that is a threat to him, he's padding his record. i never cared about that b/c to me frank was still the first mixed martial artist and the best fighter i had ever seen.

now i came home tonight a little excited that i'm going to be able to download frank/renzo from MMANews fantastic video section, and i get the fight and to my surprise, wow, frank has no takedown defense against renzo. he tagged him a couple times on the feet but nothing close to anything crucial. he does start throwing some vicious knees to renzo's ribs and i'm thinking to myself "those look tough, but he'd better watch it with them." sure enough second round comes and he throws two to the back of renzo's neck. now, ANY strike to the neck is illegal. ANY strike to the back of the head is illegal, and a knee to ANYWHERE in the head of a downed opponent is illegal. yet frank does two consecutive ones, right to the back of renzo's neck. seeing as renzo's human(almost spelt that 'ruman'), he gets hurt badly and has to stop the fight. frank knows exactly what he did. frank lost the first round convincingly. the second round was going the exact same way. but he says "oh, i guess i'm old school." YOU'RE FIGHTING A FUCKING GRACIE! you can't claim to be old school when you're against someone that graduated before you! not just that, he doesn't try to say it was an accident, which it could have. he admits he did it purposely AND basically says that renzo is a pussy for getting knocked out by multiple illegal knees to the back of the head.

"i told him i was gonna knock him out, i think he started believing it"

fuck you frank. no one gave renzo a chance in this fight. frank was the favorite by far and renzo had no chance. renzo came in and took frank down with next to no trouble and was grinding elbows while frank did nothing on the ground except hope for a referee stand-up, which he got, only to be taken down again and be handled once more. end of round 1. round 2 starts and the same shit, frank gets taken down again and renzo handles him on the ground. so what's left? frank's illegal knees.

"oh, i barely touched him"

fuck you frank. i can handle him talking shit about baroni bc baroni's a tool, and i can even handle the prefight shit-talk he gave renzo, but after losing a fight and then disqualifying yourself and playing dumb like you've never heard of the rules before and THEN blaming your opponent for getting concussed from YOUR illegal knees. fuck you frank. fuck you long and fuck you hard.

i officially wash my hands of you.

so war baroni, war renzo, and war any other mid-level fighter frank may main event against in an attempt to prove he's still the best. say what you will about ken, but he never cheated himself out of a clean loss.

Well said Branman. Shamrock proves once again that is is the biggest scumbag in the sport.

[Monsterman]

Originally Posted by Rufio

Because that discipline is all about takedowns, and he's very good at them? If Frank's the only guy causing the damage and thus is on his way to an eventual win, just like the Tito fight, what does it matter if Renzo held the wrestling edge

If you really think he would've lasted to a decision by continuing to get rocked in standup, get a takedown, then lay there and take punishment from Frank's knees, you're being silly. Renzo was getting worn down and trying to hang on as long as he could via lay 'n pray. He would not have lasted to a decision. The only way he could've pulled out a victory the way it was going is if he got in a lucky sub.

Since when was BJJ all about takedowns? It´s mostly ground game and subs and lack of wrestling is the biggest problem with a lot of great BJJ guys in mma. And if those knees to the body were so hard, Renzo could have just moved since he had the dominant position. And since when had Renzo great GnP? he was looking for sub.
Frank came out beliving he´s the greatest, got taken down at will by 39 years old BJJ guy and started cheating because the fight didn´t go as he wanted.

[ultiman187]

Originally Posted by Monsterman

Since when was BJJ all about takedowns? It´s mostly ground game and subs and lack of wrestling is the biggest problem with a lot of great BJJ guys in mma. And if those knees to the body were so hard, Renzo could have just moved since he had the dominant position. And since when had Renzo great GnP? he was looking for sub.
Frank came out beliving he´s the greatest, got taken down at will by 39 years old BJJ guy and started cheating because the fight didn´t go as he wanted.

I totally agree!! Frank cheated!! End of story. Why is Renzo getting all the blame?