To all newer fans - This is why BJ is so respected

[Macgyver]

Originally Posted by ninjastix

I don't see where you would hate Penn, it was dicky of him to hold the choke against Jens but there was an established understanding and bad blood brewing between both fighters. For that moment they wanted to hurt one another and when it was over it was over... I'm a huge Babalu fan but what he did was a bit different...

I'm curious as to how do you see it differently?

Babalu's excuse was that he was "teaching respect" while Penn's excuse was that it "Built up from 5 years of shit talking" (not much difference there). Babalu might have held the choke slightly longer, however the fact is they both conciously held the choke longer than required in malice.

To me the only difference was that Babalu was exiled from the UFC. I'm not trying to be a dick or start a big debate, I'm just a huge Babalu fan and I guess I'm still kinda bitter that the punishment was not applied consistently between the two. I'm hoping you can give me a different point of view so I won't resent Penn so much for getting away with it while my boy didn't.

[jokerthief]

Originally Posted by rivethead

Despite the fact that you missed the point of my post, I catagorically disagree with your statement. The fact that it was a split decision indicates that one judge agreed with me. Not a PRIDE judge, a UFC judge. Thus, the decision remains tangibly controversial, regardless of attempts at revisionist history.

My initial post was focused on blindness of fans not being isolated to Penn fanboys. I brought up the fact that a long-time member of the forum felt GSP took BJ down "whenever he wanted," which goes well beyond ethereal rationale and travels firmly into myopic irrationality.

I understand that I'm not going to convince a GSP fan that their hero lost any more than they'll convince me that BJ was beaten. My concern is minimally trying to keep things in perspective and avoid revisionist nonsense like "He took him down at will" and "he totally outwrestled Kos, etc..."

rh

You misunderstood me. I wasn't actually commenting on your point. I went off on a tangent when I interjected my opinion on the fight and that detracted from my point. My writing was is to blame for this, not your reading comprehension. I also quoted one too many lines from your OP . Basically, I did a terrible job of getting my point across.

I was just trying to point out that the burden of proof is on you, not the GSP advocates. It doesn't matter that it was a split decision -- that fact does lessen the burden, but the burden is still on you regardless. The decision was official and a stronger argument is necessary to claim that the decision was wrong than is needed to maintain that the decision was just. Penn supporters are the prosecution and GSP supporters are the defense.

I'm not going to interject myself into the debate you were having with whomever but I do take issue with this line: "There are two sides to the coin, there are GSP fans who refuse to accept that GSP was given a gift and BJ was robbed." I may be being a nit but as someone who does not buy into BJ being robbed or GSP being given a gift, I take exception to the implication that those two things are stated fact. And I will remind Penn advocates that they are the ones who need to come up with a really strong and clear reason why Penn won either round 2 or 3 -- I've yet to hear one -- and that the GSP advocates don't have this burden (though almost all of us are willing to shoulder it regardless). I'm just asking for a little less dogmatism. I respect those of you on the other side of this argument and can see why you hold the opinion that you do. I just don't agree with the arguments I've seen thus far.

Anyway, I probably am nit picking and perhaps I unfairly caught you in a moment of frustration. I do respect you as a poster though, but I do think that this simple little point needed to be made.

For the record, Penn is not over-rated and is #3 on my p4p list ahead of GSP.

[WinnipegRush]

Yeah good post man rep'd for sure.

[dagreat1]

Only thing on there I dissagree with is the Gomi fight. IMO Gomi won round 2.

Also, that is a much differnt Gomi than now. Namely the size of Gomi in 03 compared to the size of Gomi now. Gomi's much larger and stronger now and his skills are much more polished.

That is one of the best rematches out there, I would love to see it.

Both fighters have refined their skills but when they first fought Penn was skillfully the better fighter. Now I'm not so sure. Penn still does have more weapons than Gomi due to the submission game but Gomi's TD defense is better now and his striking and footwork is so much more refined.

That's a rematch I don't think we will ever see unless Penn goes to Japan because I don't think the US will macth what Japan pays for names like Gomi and Kid.

[ninjastix]

Originally Posted by Macgyver

I'm curious as to how do you see it differently?

Babalu's excuse was that he was "teaching respect" while Penn's excuse was that it "Built up from 5 years of shit talking" (not much difference there). Babalu might have held the choke slightly longer, however the fact is they both conciously held the choke longer than required in malice.

To me the only difference was that Babalu was exiled from the UFC. I'm not trying to be a dick or start a big debate, I'm just a huge Babalu fan and I guess I'm still kinda bitter that the punishment was not applied consistently between the two. I'm hoping you can give me a different point of view so I won't resent Penn so much for getting away with it while my boy didn't.

I'm actually glad you asked cause I struggled with it. I do think that Babalu held the choke longer, but Heath was also bleeding profusely and may have been suffering from head trauma from the shots he was taking.

When Penn sunk the choke on Jens, Jens was fully alert and aware where I saw Heath being very close to being out of his feet, not to mention bleeding like a siv...

Now I agree that both were inappropriate moves, and I've often said that in Babalu's shoes I'd probably of done the same thing If I disliked them enough and lost my temper...

But I do think now that the two situations were different... just an opinion certainly not fact...

[Ubermensch]

Penn did it like Frank did it on Barroni it was a little Jibe! Babalu did it with real malicious intent to do harm. Those are two big differences.

[Ramma]

Originally Posted by Palma

Those losses shouldn't be brushed aside, but they are both very questionable losses along with his loss to Machida (imo)... Penn could just have easily been undefeated at this point. In all four of his losses he looked like the better fighter. In the case GSP he was easily the better fighter... GSP is just better at manipulating the rules and is there for a better competitor, but no one can watch that fight and honestly say he was the better fighter.

There is nothing questionable about his loss to GSP. Penn lost rounds 2 and 3. Was it a great win for GSP or a bad loss for Penn? No, it wasn't, but Penn lost. GSP changed his game and took Penn down, he was able to do very little to Penn on the ground... because GSP was fighting BJ Penn.... on the ground...

Nothing questionable about over exerting yourself against an opponent and hurting yourself either. In fact, that makes you fighting UNINTELLIGENTLY.. Hughes took his punishment and then finished Penn. His injury against Hughes wasn't a freak accident like say, Barnett vs. Cro Cop I.

I don't see what is questionable vs. Pulver/Machida either. Sure, Pulver was saved by the bell, but the win was a win. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who questions Penn's loss to Pulver/Machida, must also question Penn's win over Serra.

If you want to blame those losses and underestimating an opponent, then fine.. but they are legit. If you want to claim (and I would agree) that Penn has never gotten his ass handed to him, then fine.

My thoughts on the Penn is that at LW, he is damn near impossible to beat. When he leaves that weight class, things change.

Penn could have been easily undefeated, but he isn't. So could a ton of other fighters.

Don't get me wrong, Penn awes me. His recent change of attitude has made me a bigger fan of him now than probably ever before. He is absolutely the greatest LW ever in the sport, in the same way that Hughes was the greatest WW, Fedor the greatest HW, etc. I don't care if Florian/Huerta beats him, he is still the best. But he isn't divine and he isn't unbeatable. P4P, there are better fighters.