The "Warrior Spirit" vs "How much is our health worth?"

[kc56]

So there is something I wanted to discuss with everybody.

There is 2 parts of it.

The first part of it is what is usually referred to as "the Warrior Spirit". Meaning if a fighter gets rocked, cut, has a swollen eye, etc... and the ref steps in, or the doctor wants to stop the fight, the guy trudges on. Then everyone says "wow, what a tough S.O.B." or "what a warrior" "heart of a champion" etc...

The second part is lately fighters like Kalib and Tito are talking about "what is our health worth?" "how much is being paralyzed worth" etc...

I guess what I am getting at is that there is a certain type of person that is willing to fight. They have accepted the risks that come with it, and take it as part of the job. The Fireman accepts that he may have to run into a burning building. It comes with the job. The Policeman accepts that he at some point may be in a life or death situation. It comes with the job. To me, those are both jobs that are higher risk than fighting in the UFC and for the same, or much less pay.

Their are so many rules that are in place in MMA to protect the fighter. We are seeing fights stopped earlier and earlier at the slightest sign of trouble. Yet we the fans generally boo that. The losing fighter stands up and protests. There are definitely fighters that throw that caution to the wind and will fight through just about anything.

My stance is that if you are scared of getting hurt, choose another career. If you are a fan or a fighter, you can't really have it both ways. Either the guys are warriors, and they tough it out, or we get out the big gloves and outlaw so many of the moves that are potentially harmful.

What do you guys think?

[mauladala]

Originally Posted by kc56

My stance is that if you are scared of getting hurt, choose another career. If you are a fan or a fighter, you can't really have it both ways. Either the guys are warriors, and they tough it out, or we get out the big gloves and outlaw so many of the moves that are potentially harmful.

I'm inclined to agree with this sentiment. And wouldn't there be more brain damage done with big gloves anyway? lol

[Lord Faust]

I could give less-than a shit what Kalib Starnes has to say about the value of his health. (Or anything, really.) He chose to engage in hand-to-hand combat as his profession; to start bitching and whining that it's not financially worth his time says to me that he should take up basket weaving or something a little less dangerous. Or maybe he should get good at it, then the pay might catch up.

[hunterkiller]

Now who's posting about Tito?

Anyway, I think it can be had both ways. You do have to have no fear of getting injured when you climb into the cage (or ring), or you won't do well. However, in any sport, I think that the owner has the obligation to take care of your medical needs. They also are benefiting from you getting in their and putting your body on the line. If both parties are benefiting from the fight, then both parties should be responsible for what happens to them. Health benefits are a must.

[kc56]

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

Now who's posting about Tito?

Anyway, I think it can be had both ways. You do have to have no fear of getting injured when you climb into the cage (or ring), or you won't do well. However, in any sport, I think that the owner has the obligation to take care of your medical needs. They also are benefiting from you getting in their and putting your body on the line. If both parties are benefiting from the fight, then both parties should be responsible for what happens to them. Health benefits are a must.

The UFC has to cover the fighters for any injuries sustained in the cage. Kalib is Canadian, so he is taken care of outside the cage, and Tito has been given more than enough money to get some health insurance. In fact, so many of these guys that don't make enough are part time, and may be insured through their other jobs. When they make the jump to full-time fighters (and are actually wanted as such) they are generally paid well enough IMO to get health insurance.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I repeat "if you are scared of getting hurt, pick a different line of work.

If the UFC was to provide full time health insurance, I think our PPV costs would go up, the fighters pay would go down, and the contracts that so many already have problems with being to restrictive and iron-clad, would be far more restrictive as far as what the fighters could do on their off time.

[hunterkiller]

Originally Posted by kc56

The UFC has to cover the fighters for any injuries sustained in the cage. Kalib is Canadian, so he is taken care of outside the cage, and Tito has been given more than enough money to get some health insurance. In fact, so many of these guys that don't make enough are part time, and may be insured through their other jobs. When they make the jump to full-time fighters (and are actually wanted as such) they are generally paid well enough IMO to get health insurance.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I repeat "if you are scared of getting hurt, pick a different line of work.

If the UFC was to provide full time health insurance, I think our PPV costs would go up, the fighters pay would go down, and the contracts that so many already have problems with being to restrictive and iron-clad, would be far more restrictive as far as what the fighters could do on their off time.

In my opinion though, if MMA is ever going to be taken seriously as a professional sport, they have to carry insurance over their guys. I do think a requirement would have to be like a full time fighter, under contract for a certain period of time. That's true in any job. But all of the other sports take care of the medical benefits of their guys. If MMA is ever going to be taken mainstream, they have to take care of their guys, even if it eats a little profit. Could you imagine what would happen if some foghorn like Bill O'Reilly, who is already very vocally against MMA got ahold of the info that MMA doesn't insure their fighters during training? It would be a hailstorm of negativity towards MMA.

I don't deny it being costly, that's a fact.

[Lefthookstcrook]

Pretty touchy subject but IMO" If you can't handle the heat, get the fuck out the kitchen". If all fighters were worried about getting hurt in the cage then there would be NO fighters. I take my hat off for all the fighters that step into the ring/cage and leave it all in there

Its a job, a professional one at that, that pays damn good money. Choose another job if you dont like the responsibility/risk that comes along with it. As Kc56 said, Cops know when they take the job that someday they could get shot at, firemen are going to have to run into a burning building someday, its the same with MMA. Except MMA pays a hell of alot better, i know cops aint gettin paid more then 700,000 a year,Tito made that in one fight(reportedly)

IMO Tito is just bitching and trying to utilize his popularity to say some bad shit about the UFC before he leaves, no org he goes to will have insurance for all their fighters, so take that out of Tito argument and its all about how much dana hates him and how much he not getting paid" for the champion he is"

And someone correct me if im wrong but what the fuck is Kalib bitching about?!? If your a canadian citizen and fight in the US, cant you go back to canada and get fixed up FOR FREE?I have no idea

[Zenshotokai]

I too agree that I appreciate fighters that "leave it all in the ring" but I also believe in the safety of the fighters. When a fighter does not protect himself, I believe that the fight should be stopped. With MMA gloves, it can only take one or two shots to cripple a fighter needlessly.

If you take some of the line of thinking from some people here on the board....there should be no Tap outs! If you tap, does not mean that you are a pussy? Is it worth tearing up a shoulder or knee to continue and perhaps reverse the submission? MMA is a different animal than a lot of other contact sports. Protection of the fighters is unique.

[#1taz]

If fighters that are on the middle of the card or bottom were paid a decent minimum pay, they could easily afford their medical bills - but sadly that's not the case. And what Kalib was talking about mainly was the upfront expenses that had to be paid out of his pocket because they had to be done locally in the state where he was fighting.

Either the UFC should raise their base pay for a fighter under contract or absorb some of the pre-fight/post fight expenses - preferrably both. They can damn sure afford it without having to rob us fans of more $$.

As for stopping fights - the only way for the sport to continue to gain in mainstream popularity is to "keep it clean" by protecting the fighters from serious harm and strictly enforcing the rules. What good is it to anyone if a fighter - any fighter - gets seriously injured or killed in the cage?

IMHO the same casual fan neanderthals that boo when a fight gets stopped are the same ones that boo when a fight goes to the ground, and who cares wtf they want? They just want to see blood and see someone get brutalized, and don't respect the sport or the participants much anyway.

[kc56]

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

In my opinion though, if MMA is ever going to be taken seriously as a professional sport, they have to carry insurance over their guys.

If these guys can make a living doing this, they are professionals. How they choose to spend that money is up to them. And as I pointed out, that insurance would come with much stricter guidelines much like other pro sports. Fighters would likely be held to tighter fight minimums to ensure return on investment. Right now, if a fighter pulls out, sure the UFC loses whatever marketing they put into it, but not health insurance for that long span of time. Also, some people bitch about the UFC's contracts being too strict. They would only get more strict in regards to what the fighters can and cannot do on their off time (I.E. riding motorcycles playing contact sports etc...)

Also, it's not the same. In other pro sports, the demands are MUCH higher. Football players play at least 16 games (barring injury) over an 18 week period (not including playoffs). Those games are all an hour long. There is a lot less time for recovery in there.

Let's look at Chuck Liddell's year.
In 2004

KO'd Tito total time 5:38
KO'd Vernon White total time 4:05

Total time in the cage fighting for '04 was 9 minutes and 43 seconds. How much did he make for that?

05 was a rough year.
KO'd Randy 2:06
TKO Horn 17:46
19:52

That is pretty much on par for an NBA player who's season lasts 232 days not including training.

My point is that although I like watching MMA more than NBA, to try to compare MMA to all the other sports is just a bad idea.

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

I do think a requirement would have to be like a full time fighter, under contract for a certain period of time. That's true in any job. But all of the other sports take care of the medical benefits of their guys.

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

If MMA is ever going to be taken mainstream, they have to take care of their guys, even if it eats a little profit.

Who's profit? The organization or the fighters?
Another point that needs to be made is that in order for MMA to be taken seriously or mainstream as you put it, their should be some sort of proving grounds of feeding stream to weed the low level fighters out and just have the true pros make it (ala college football / basketball). I think that will also take a big fighting org (such as the UFC) staying alive for a generation. What I mean by this is, how many people watch pro football, hockey, basketball etc and think that they could do that? I look at the NFL and know damn well I could never cover a T.O. or a Randy Moss. I know I could never block a Mario Williams. Now how many people see the UFC on TV and think that they could last a round or 3 with some of these guys? I bet you that number is a lot higher. Right now, there are still so many fighters that do this half way or as a way to make "easy money". There are so many little kids that want to be the next Peyton Manning, or Lebron James and train their whole lives to do that. Once we see kids wanting to be the next BJ Penn, or the next Georges St. Pierre, then MMA will be along the right path to catch up to the other sports.

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

Could you imagine what would happen if some foghorn like Bill O'Reilly, who is already very vocally against MMA got ahold of the info that MMA doesn't insure their fighters during training? It would be a hailstorm of negativity towards MMA.

Because I am sure that fact is so very highly guarded that only Dana and all of us forum dwellers are privy to such top-secret information. Someone like Bill O'Reilly could never find out something like that...

So you say insured for a fighter's training. That raises an excellent point. Most fighters may train for 6-8 weeks for a fight. So would they be covered for the other 2-10 months that some fighters take in between fights?

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

I don't deny it being costly, that's a fact.

That is something we agree upon. Like any good business, that money will come from somewhere. Our pocket, the fighter's pocket, but a good business will manage their profit line just the same.


Believe it or not, my goal of this thread was not to argue semantics with you, but rather to point out that fighters are arguing both sides of the coin on this topic, and that some understand it comes with their chosen line of work, and some expect that they should be compensated extreme amounts of money based on that same topic.