Should The UFC Cut Ties With Tito Ortiz

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

People are still reading these Tito-Dana threads and even you took the time to read and post on it.

Simply a typo, no big deal.

Shogun had a torn ACL and that's difficult to come back from in any sport especially the type of fighter Shogun is. I do agree Shogun is alot higher than most of the guys on that list, but how will that knee be when he comes back. A few years back, Daunte Culpepper was QB of the Minnesota Vikings and one of the best QBs in the league. He tore his ACL and still hasn't been able to come all the way back. He's been on 3 teams in 2 years now and isn't even signed with anyone right now. I hope Shogun comes back with a vengeance, but it's speculation at best, to say what he will look like when he does come back.

I agree here, I think Tito and Dana holed up in an office somewhere and planned this whole war of words thing. It sells PPV and they are both about a good show and that ever so popular $$$$$. I've seen the Machida promos and he's very soft spoken, and even compliments Tito on a bunch of things instead of trashing him. I think Dana saw this and they were like, "we have to do something to sell this fight."

Sure, I'll read threads, with the hope that there is something redeeming or even new and interesting about them...but there isn't. The only reason I posted this was the glaring omission of Shogun from whoever your source was. I've known a lot of athletes who came back fine from a torn ACL...speculating that Shogun's is career-ending/permenantly-debilitating is premature.


What the whole melodrama comes down to for me is there are fighters who are relevant, and fighters who aren't. There are fighters who don't say a lot before fights and gain all their respect from what they do in the ring [Anderson, Big Nog, GSP]; and fighters who talk smack, but back it up in the ring [Rampage, Penn].

And finally, there are fighters like Tito, who used to be relevant, and are now just a faded shadow of themselves; desperately trying to cling to relevancy by overhyping because they know they'll be underperforming. They're 14 and three-quarter minutes through their fifteen minutes of fame, and are more terrified of obscurity than anything.

I'm a huge Machida fan, and I hope he wins; but not because I "hate" Tito. If I hate anything, it's what Tito has become. If he was performing even close to his former level; if he'd made any effort to address the holes in his game; or to focus his energies on the industry that made him who he is, instead of pursuing celebrity as though it's an end in and of itself instead of a by-product; I could respect him again.

I don't care if he's talking nonsense, I don't care what org he's fighting for...he's a shadow of his former self, and he's not doing anything to change it. That's what sucks the most about Tito.

Hurray for a re-formed Team Punishment if it brings some actual talent to his camp that can teach Tito some Muy Thai, or BJJ, or even how to strike. If he does leave the UFC--which would be the best thing for him--I wish him the best...but only if he stops coasting on his name/drawing power and is 100% focused on fighting.

If he doesn't, he's maybe two years away from being the next Ken Shamrock. This isn't an industry you can dabble in, especially with the wealth of talent in the UFC's LHW division. He can probably coast on his name in a smaller organization for a little bit longer, but his sideshow act is already old to me.

He needs to either fight or quit. If he's distracted by money, he should try earning some in the cage.

rh

[kc56]

Originally Posted by rivethead

Sure, I'll read threads, with the hope that there is something redeeming or even new and interesting about them...but there isn't. The only reason I posted this was the glaring omission of Shogun from whoever your source was. I've known a lot of athletes who came back fine from a torn ACL...speculating that Shogun's is career-ending/permenantly-debilitating is premature.


What the whole melodrama comes down to for me is there are fighters who are relevant, and fighters who aren't. There are fighters who don't say a lot before fights and gain all their respect from what they do in the ring [Anderson, Big Nog, GSP]; and fighters who talk smack, but back it up in the ring [Rampage, Penn].

And finally, there are fighters like Tito, who used to be relevant, and are now just a faded shadow of themselves; desperately trying to cling to relevancy by overhyping because they know they'll be underperforming. They're 14 and three-quarter minutes through their fifteen minutes of fame, and are more terrified of obscurity than anything.

I'm a huge Machida fan, and I hope he wins; but not because I "hate" Tito. If I hate anything, it's what Tito has become. If he was performing even close to his former level; if he'd made any effort to address the holes in his game; or to focus his energies on the industry that made him who he is, instead of pursuing celebrity as though it's an end in and of itself instead of a by-product; I could respect him again.

I don't care if he's talking nonsense, I don't care what org he's fighting for...he's a shadow of his former self, and he's not doing anything to change it. That's what sucks the most about Tito.

Hurray for a re-formed Team Punishment if it brings some actual talent to his camp that can teach Tito some Muy Thai, or BJJ, or even how to strike. If he does leave the UFC--which would be the best thing for him--I wish him the best...but only if he stops coasting on his name/drawing power and is 100% focused on fighting.

If he doesn't, he's maybe two years away from being the next Ken Shamrock. This isn't an industry you can dabble in, especially with the wealth of talent in the UFC's LHW division. He can probably coast on his name in a smaller organization for a little bit longer, but his sideshow act is already old to me.

He needs to either fight or quit. If he's distracted by money, he should try earning some in the cage.

rh

Amen!

RivetHead for President!

I think that I should start a poll called

"How many more polls / threads is thecoylewis going to start about Tito this week?"

We get it. You like Tito. Much like him, you are becoming a media whore.

I couldn't agree more with RH's post and about how Tito has been coasting on his name alone to try and seem like a top guy at LHW. I think that his name and marketability are both on a decline but they are just a bit behind how his fight game has been declining.

As for Dana calling Tito an idiot and one of the dumbest people he has met? I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it.

There is a friend of my parents that has a son that has just become 18 or 19 or so. He went to college and got terrible grades and had to drop out. Now after one year of "life in the real world" he comes over and at dinners "tells us all how things are out there in the real world". He speculates about business and politics etc. To be nice about it, it makes my head hurt because he says the stupidest shit and really has no clue. Now, I have corrected him on a million things a million times, but he just keeps on going down his diluted path saying stupid things. I still correct him from time to time because I don't want my little brothers to ever take anything this jackass says to be fact, because it is not.

To hear Tito say on a public forum"I am a good businessman and I am good with numbers, so let me break it down for you" and then proceed to do the most self-serving, terrible numbers and math, to demonstrate how he should be paid more. Well, that has to make Dana's head hurt too.

Is it right? No. Do I get it? Yes. Do we need you to start another poll or thread about it? I certainly don't.

I further agree with RH that this thread is garbage. How do you have Tito as beating Ken twice, but only losing to Chuck once? Why does Rampage only list as beating Chuck once? That is a rather slanted view of things. Shogun did more to convince he belongs at the top of the pack in one tournament than Tito has done in the last 6 years.

[thecoylewis]

Comparing those records is kinda stupid actually, 2 of Tito's wins were against Shamrock so throw them out and your left with the Forrest win which could have easily gone the other way and should have at least been a draw.

The UFC pushed that Ken Shamrock-Tito feud through the Ultimate Fighter and tons of people were talking about it when it was happening. Then they pushed and pushed for the rematch because it got stopped early. You can hardly fault him for fighting Shamrock when they had a legit feud and made him and the UFC a ton of money. He fought who they wanted him to fight. And I wasn't comparing the records alone. I'm saying look what each guy has done over their last 5 fights, compare opponents, and the outcome of those fights.

Originally Posted by rivethead

I've known a lot of athletes who came back fine from a torn ACL...speculating that Shogun's is career-ending/permenantly-debilitating is premature.

I wasn't speculating that he can't come back from it. I was saying that I won't speculate that he will come back as the Shogun that destroyed fighters in the past.

rh

Originally Posted by kc56

How do you have Tito as beating Ken twice, but only losing to Chuck once? Why does Rampage only list as beating Chuck once? That is a rather slanted view of things. Shogun did more to convince he belongs at the top of the pack in one tournament than Tito has done in the last 6 years.

I found the last 5 fights of each fighter. It's not a compilation of every fighters key fights. Being that professional sports is what have do done for me lately, I picked the last 5 fights and compared those results. And I do agree that Shogun is at the top, but with his knee injury, a torn ACL, I didn't throw him in the mix because 1) we don't know when he's coming back and 2) what condition he will be in when he does come back. I hope he comes back with a vengeance and destroys Chuck when that fight inevitably happens.

And I created the thread because of all of the other threads being all about Dana vs Tito, who deserves what. I wanted a general breakdown of these fighters with some compare and contrast, and to get a feel of what people thought as far as whether or not he should stay or go. And with UFC 84 being a week out, it's not a bad idea. I can tell you know, it has nothing to do with me being a Tito fan. I created a few threads about the last PPV and will make a thread about UFC 85 before it happens and 86 after that. I like talking on these forums while I am at work to pass the time when there is down time. I like to get the opinions of like minded individuals who like to debate the subjects. KC56 and Rivethead never disappoint in the debate. I value the opinions. Isn't that the point?

[kc56]

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

The UFC pushed that Ken Shamrock-Tito feud through the Ultimate Fighter and tons of people were talking about it when it was happening. Then they pushed and pushed for the rematch because it got stopped early. You can hardly fault him for fighting Shamrock when they had a legit feud and made him and the UFC a ton of money. He fought who they wanted him to fight.

Yes, the UFC sure did hype up that fight. They promoted it and sold it very well. Tito and Ken both played their part very well too.

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

And I wasn't comparing the records alone. I'm saying look what each guy has done over their last 5 fights, compare opponents, and the outcome of those fights.

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

I found the last 5 fights of each fighter. It's not a compilation of every fighters key fights. Being that professional sports is what have do done for me lately, I picked the last 5 fights and compared those results.

Yeah, I saw that criteria after I posted. I misread it the first time.

Right. 5 is a good number for Tito. If you would have done their last 4 fights you would have Tito only beating Ken twice and losing to Chuck and drawing with Rashad.
Forrest would look better and so would Jardine.

If you examined Tito's record since the beginning of 2002 you would see that he has

Decision over Cote
Split Decision over Vitor
Split Decision over Forrest
3 wins over Shamrock

And he has lost to Chuck twice
Lost to Randy
Drew with Rashad.

Aside from beating Shamrock repeatedly he has 3 decision wins (2 splits) one draw, and lost 3.

His record lately (last 6 and a half years) for stopping fights if it's not against Shamrock isn't so hot.

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

And I do agree that Shogun is at the top, but with his knee injury, a torn ACL, I didn't throw him in the mix because 1) we don't know when he's coming back and 2) what condition he will be in when he does come back. I hope he comes back with a vengeance and destroys Chuck when that fight inevitably happens.

So is this
-What have you done for me lately?
-What will you do for me in the future?
-I want to see you lose because you beat up my hero?

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

And I created the thread because of all of the other threads being all about Dana vs Tito, who deserves what. I wanted a general breakdown of these fighters with some compare and contrast, and to get a feel of what people thought as far as whether or not he should stay or go. And with UFC 84 being a week out, it's not a bad idea. I can tell you know, it has nothing to do with me being a Tito fan. I created a few threads about the last PPV and will make a thread about UFC 85 before it happens and 86 after that.

So all these Tito threads went right along with all your threads and polls about
-Penn vs Sherk
-Soko vs Nakamura
-Silva vs Jardine
-Salaverry vs Palhares

etc...

Right?

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

I like talking on these forums while I am at work to pass the time when there is down time. I like to get the opinions of like minded individuals who like to debate the subjects. KC56 and Rivethead never disappoint in the debate. I value the opinions. Isn't that the point?

Sure is.

[whitey64]

So if Tito is complaining about money why would he goto a org that would make him less money...I mean yah he might make more per fight say with Elite XC but with UFC being so popular and he is a PPV seller he must make money from PPV buys and I dont think Team Punishment would sell as much if he wasnt with UFC so does anyone else think he will make less if he leaves.

[Ifightforaliving]

there is no doubt he will unless he goes with HDnet .Cause that man has deep pockets bro and them shits is filled up with loot.

[rivethead]

Originally Posted by thecoylewis

The UFC pushed that Ken Shamrock-Tito feud through the Ultimate Fighter and tons of people were talking about it when it was happening. Then they pushed and pushed for the rematch because it got stopped early. You can hardly fault him for fighting Shamrock when they had a legit feud and made him and the UFC a ton of money. He fought who they wanted him to fight. And I wasn't comparing the records alone. I'm saying look what each guy has done over their last 5 fights, compare opponents, and the outcome of those fights.

But are you really comparing the opponents?

Let's just take Wandi, who comes off worse on your list than anyone. He's lost 3 in a row, as you point out quite often. But he's lost to Cro Cop, Hendo and Chuck.

Do you honestly think Tito would have an edge over any of them? Ortiz been beaten convincingly by Chuck twice. Henderson is a better grappler, has far better striking with heavier hands, and a better chin. Even on his current road to recovery, Cro-cop--despite the fact that Tito will never fight in an OWGP, so the point is moot--would destroy him.

Do you really think Wandi couldn't beat Shammy twice in back to back fights?

It seems to me as though you are picking through statistics based on what will give Tito the most support as still be relevant...in grad school, we called that massaging the data [statistics don't lie, but staticians often do...] and it just doesn't work.

Right now, Tito isn't relevant. He's picking at the edges of the UFC's LHW talent pool, and he's not even showing a fraction of his ability. He is a fighter with potential, but he's even more doubtful than Shogun at this point...he's just cried wolf too often, with "I'm 100%, I'm healthy" then failing to deliver anything but excuses after he underperforms in a match.

Why did you put part of what you wrote in quotes?

rh