Changing Weight Classes; etc. Simple questions?

[rivethead]

With all the talk about people moving up and down in weight--before their next fights are won and divisions are cleaned out--I've been thinking. The answers seem obvious to me, but I'm not sure; and open to input:

Does a fighter who moves down in weight class to challenge new competition deserve the same accolades as a fighter who moves up in class?

In other words, personalities/skills aside: would it be a bigger accomplishment for A.Silva to move up and beat Rampage than it would be to move down and beat GSP?

The way I interpret p4p rankings [which obviously differs from a lot of board member's philosophies] it's a much bigger accomplishment to challenge/defeat bigger fighters. I don't give a lot of p4p credit to a guy who is physically much bigger than his opponent. Certainly, it earns props in a given weight class if the guy can make weight, but it doesn't equate to p4p dominance in my book...


Vaguely, this also corresponds to a lot of posts about Fedor fighting Tim, and the hopes that the fight should be in a cage, under North American [read: UFC] rules; etc.

I just think it's "worth" more to beat a guy where he's comfortable. It would be a bigger deal to fight Fedor in a ring, under PRIDE rules than it would be to try to get him to adjust to a new style and take advantage of the edges it might give you.

Thoughts?

rh

[TheKidInside]

In terms of rules, I don't think it's going to make too much difference for Fedor to fight in a cage or the ring against Tim. Tim is not a grappler so he won't utilize the fence for anything other than perhaps stopping Fedors take downs by leanin agains the cage, but he'll probably get taken down anyway. And Fedor doesn't do too many stomps/kicks to the man on the ground so the stomps/kicks to a downed opponent won't matter too much in this fight.

back to the other Q. I think it's more of an accomplishment to move up to 205 and beat Rampage because he's an amazing boxer and i think the fight would be, more likely than not, a stand up war. but fighting GSP would be amazing too, not fighting at WW, but fighting GSP at WW specifically. my two cents.

[grambino]

I agree that going up in weight class is the better accomplishment. Maybe it's just a misguided thought process, but if you're the most dominant fighter in your class you should be able to beat the smaller guy. You never hear people say they're moving on to smaller and better things, it's always bigger and better things.

[thebwit]

That's a good question and an interesting one. There's some good thoughts about beating a fighter where he is most comfortable at, but in moving up a weight class most fighters have to cut far less weight and I would think that would give them a slight advantage over the "bigger" fighter who has to cut weight to make that weight class. So to say beating a fighter after moving up weight classes I am not sure about.

However - beating Fedor in a cage vs beating him a ring are two different things. Back when most people loved Randy and we were speculating on a Randy/Fedor fight nearly everyone said that Randy would win in the cage and Fedor in the ring.

I can also say that it is more significant if a fighter beats another fighter in their home town. Take Silva beating Franklin in Ohio. Even though Franklin told everyone to applaud Silva for being the better fighter - people already really respected him for it. If Serra had won (see my sig) in Canada I would be more impressed with it than if it was in Vegas.

[ninjastix]

As a general rule of thumb I'd have to agree that it says more to beat the physically bigger fighter but when you get to MMA, you have to consider skill, talent, and technique as deeply as size imo.

Many of the arts employed in MMA center around nullifying a size or strength advantage, but when you consider that someone bigger than you may be versed in the same skill set... well you go around in a comfortable circle...

Personally I think you just have to judge a fighter by who they've been able to beat, it's very difficult to find someone fighting at their comfortable weight who's not giving up some sort of advantage. Penn is a very close exception but he still seems to condition better at a lighter weight.

I don't think you deserve special consideration for moving up against your weight class and being unsuccessful, but if you can do it, it absolutely should be in the realm of consideration for a pound for pound title... but I think to start holding it against fighters who cut to fight in weight classes is a little silly.

[hunterkiller]

You see more fighters moving up in weight class after they have been successful at their own weight class. Most times you hear about a fighter dropping to a smaller class, it was after a loss. Bisping and Swick are 2 examples of recent fighters who dropped to another class after losing at the bigger weight. The only fighter I can remember in recent memory moving up after a loss was Couture and those are different circumstances. He had enjoyed success there in the past and he was coming off a year or more off. I think Silva moving up and beating Rampage would be more of an accomplishment than moving down and beating GSP. However, I think that's a moot point because if the Silva-GSP fight happens, it's most likely going to be a catchweight fight so the titles don't play into it ala Hughes-Gracie.

[kc56]

Yeah, I think that moving up a weight class and winning is more impressive than moving down a weight class. This means that you fought and beat a fighter that most likely had the size advantage over you.

However, I don't really like all of the talk about someone was a "natural" this weight fighter, so think of them differently. Penn and Serra have both had the title of "Natural LW" so for some reason, they should be treated and ranked differently. Now, I can see people giving Penn credit for fighting at MW and LHW because that is outside of his true or normal weight. But when the fight happens and both fighters weigh 169, they are both WWs. When Penn weighs 170 and fights someone at 205, thats another story. Just because fighters have competed at certain weights at one point in their career does not bond them to that weight class. Sure, Anderson used to compete at a lower weight class, but due to his gain in lean mass and his comfort zone at MW, he is a MW, and I doubt he could get back to WW and still be as effective and healthy (that weight Anderson Silva looked alot like Yves Edwards to me). Much like how Monson fought Chuck Liddell at LHW but now is about 250. Is he the same fighter now? I don't think so. Should Tim have his victory discounted against Monson because he was a "Natural" LHW? Not in my book.

I have long felt that cutting weight is an art or a skill, as well as a gamble (Lutter). Much like other skills, it can give you an advantage (Randy at LHW, GSP, Rich Franklin, Fitch and Shields, etc...) when you cut the weight. Even Bisping has seemingly figured that out. It can be an advantage much like having great conditioning, or BJJ can be an advantage in your fights.

In fact, I think that is one of the things that American fighters have long done, and taken more advantage of than most of their Pride counterparts. To me Shogun, Wandy, and yes, even CroCop looked small in their respective weight classes in the UFC.

[Dr. MMA]

I always thought it was a bigger accolade to move up in weight class to fight opponents rather than moving down. It'd be a way bigger deal if GSP beat Silva rather than Silva beating GSP. Silva is much bigger than GSP. I know a lot of people are going to say "well GSP is huge for his weight class". Well yea he does have a frame bigger than a lot of them but his walking weight is really equivalent to other fighters in the ww division. Fitch, Kos, Thiago, Serra, Hughes all walk around the same weight too. It's a fact that some people just have a bigger frame for their weight.

However, with that being said, fighters have done better in the higher weight class compared to the lower ones they have fought such as Dan Henderson or Joe Riggs or Robbie Lawler. I think other facets come into play in this, such as speed, power and conditioning. Cutting weight takes a huge toll on your body, so there is a critical point where its more detrimental in your ability to perform rather than being an advantage. Also, we have to look at the competition and style in the weight class. WW's have a lot of great wrestlers where as in the mw doesn't. Questions like "How does that match up with your own style" plays a factor as well.

[Rufio]

For the most part, yes, beating bigger opponents is more impressive. However, a fighter may be more or less effective at a lower weight. For instance, Bisping looked significantly faster and more aggressive in his striking at 185; however, Mike Swick looked like he lost something from the cut. On a personal level, some fighters may have a tougher time being dominant at a lower weight class than a higher one due to the toll it takes on their body. Kc56 is right on in his assessment.

[AJL416AZ]

moving up is always more impressive because you are beating larger fighters, no matter the larger fighters' P4P rankings. anyone thats been in a fight or trained knows how much harder it is to fight and beat a bigger guy when skill levels are similar