Lennox Lewis - Why is he so overlooked?

[Harlem]

Originally Posted by Jones

>>>Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.<<<

Thank You! You do that. I'll be here waiting. As for Lewis' and Tyson's friendship, they were about as close as you and I. Sure, they sparred for a week in Catskill as kids and slept in the same room while Lewis was under Arnie Boehm.
If you think Lewis and Tyson were so close, would Tyson have had such disgusting verbal comments and murderous intentions towards Lewis whenever Tyson talked about him?
Look back to 2000 from Tyson's fight with Francis onward. Even when Tyson and Lewis weren't slated to meet eachother, Tyson had nothing but foul comments and utter disrespect towards him, including his quote that he would put a bullet in the back of Lewis' head.
But I guess to you, that's just all fun and games and Tyson really loved Lewis like a brother. LOL!!!!
Sure, AFTER his ass kicking, Tyson suddenly hugged and kissed Lewis like they were best buddies. There were never truly best buddies at anytime. Tyson was always afraid of meeting Lewis in the ring. It was a known fact.
As for Holyfield faring well against Lewis, sure, Holyfield managed to squeek in 1 more good performance. But why don't you take a look at his prime and see him struggle like hell and even falter against the likes of Michael Moorer. See him, in his prime, get knocked down by Bert Cooper and go through hell to get the win. Holyfield was always a very inconsistent performer. He could look great in one fight and look like sh*t in another against B level competition. Hell, he was having wars against guys who shouldn't have been giving him wars. What's he doing struggling with guys like Alex Stewart? What's he doing going 5-6 rounds with Bobby Czyz? Alot of Holyfield's career was inconsistent, he never had a period of steamrolling through the competition at heavyweight. But no fault of his, it just means he had to do alot more to win because he was a smaller man.
You can keep poking at Lewis' losses to McCall and Rahman. But if you want to turn a blind eye to the losses of the Top 20 fighters in history, then you are definitely showing favouritism and plain hatred at the same time.

I don't have anything against you for saying you didn't give a crap about Lewis. Alot of fans didn't care about Lewis. It means nothing to me. You can hate on whoever you want, I don't mind in the least. Just as long as you know the facts and don't try to lay blame on Lewis for fights not materializing.
Lewis did NOTHING to stop the fights with Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson from happening. You said he stayed hidden in a hole being protected while these guys fought it out. That's complete rubbish and that's what I'm calling you out on.
As for everything else, hate away. It's all good.

I for one don't want to read these essays either. I think you make some good points and so does Cruz but please keep it short and to the point. Bad enough I have to read essays and books in college but on the internet I would like to keep it moving.

[Luis Cruz]

Originally Posted by Jones

>>>Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.<<<

Thank You! You do that. I'll be here waiting. As for Lewis' and Tyson's friendship, they were about as close as you and I. Sure, they sparred for a week in Catskill as kids and slept in the same room while Lewis was under Arnie Boehm.
If you think Lewis and Tyson were so close, would Tyson have had such disgusting verbal comments and murderous intentions towards Lewis whenever Tyson talked about him?
Look back to 2000 from Tyson's fight with Francis onward. Even when Tyson and Lewis weren't slated to meet eachother, Tyson had nothing but foul comments and utter disrespect towards him, including his quote that he would put a bullet in the back of Lewis' head.
But I guess to you, that's just all fun and games and Tyson really loved Lewis like a brother. LOL!!!!
Sure, AFTER his ass kicking, Tyson suddenly hugged and kissed Lewis like they were best buddies. There were never truly best buddies at anytime. Tyson was always afraid of meeting Lewis in the ring. It was a known fact.
As for Holyfield faring well against Lewis, sure, Holyfield managed to squeek in 1 more good performance. But why don't you take a look at his prime and see him struggle like hell and even falter against the likes of Michael Moorer. See him, in his prime, get knocked down by Bert Cooper and go through hell to get the win. Holyfield was always a very inconsistent performer. He could look great in one fight and look like sh*t in another against B level competition. Hell, he was having wars against guys who shouldn't have been giving him wars. What's he doing struggling with guys like Alex Stewart? What's he doing going 5-6 rounds with Bobby Czyz? Alot of Holyfield's career was inconsistent, he never had a period of steamrolling through the competition at heavyweight. But no fault of his, it just means he had to do alot more to win because he was a smaller man.
You can keep poking at Lewis' losses to McCall and Rahman. But if you want to turn a blind eye to the losses of the Top 20 fighters in history, then you are definitely showing favouritism and plain hatred at the same time.

I don't have anything against you for saying you didn't give a crap about Lewis. Alot of fans didn't care about Lewis. It means nothing to me. You can hate on whoever you want, I don't mind in the least. Just as long as you know the facts and don't try to lay blame on Lewis for fights not materializing.
Lewis did NOTHING to stop the fights with Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson from happening. You said he stayed hidden in a hole being protected while these guys fought it out. That's complete rubbish and that's what I'm calling you out on.
As for everything else, hate away. It's all good.

Lewis and Tyson WERE friends, maybe not best friends or brothers but friends. It wasn't just a week thing. They were sparring when they were younger, when Tyson was just a teen. Tyson is a bipolar whack job, his outbursts are to everyone, that doesn't erase a past friendship. His talk before the fight was buildup in his own sick way like he's done with others. But you saying he was afraid of him being a 'known fact' is anything but a fact unless you are Mike Tyson or he said it to you or out loud. That's just your opinion that can't be backed up with fact.

The whole Holyfield breakdown did nothing, you keep going off about other people and in this instance it was Holyfield who you said was inconsistant and whatever else but then say he had one good fight left in him because he gave Lewis hell, yea let's talk favortism shall we? Others have lost, yes, but the people from the 60s and 70s whether you agree or not were of way higher caliber than the fighters of the 80s and today, THAT'S fact. Lewis had a voice he could've spoke out, kept calling people out, if it was indeed him who was being ducked, eventually they have to answer him. He didn't voice his disapproval too much, he just let management handle everything, that's not a guy in a hurry to jump in with the other 'best' out there. Oh and there is the case that he retired before taking the rematch with Vitali which is a fight he should've had. But like you used earlier for someone else, he priced himself out and made it loud and publicly clear that it would take a lot of money to get him out to do the fight. The money was offered Vitali didn't care what he made he just wanted the fight, but Lewis still refused.

This is nothing but a defensive battle on your part because that's your favorite boxer of all time being that you have yet to deny it even though it was said a couple times now and plus part of your email address does have this in it...... "british_badboy". Nuff said. Now you want to compare boxing knowledge, let's move on and discuss today's happenings as we see and as it happens. We can debate on history as well as it comes up, there's only one person i ever met that knew more than i did it and that's the guy i told you about in my last post. You'll change your tune about me knowing nothing about this sport real quick. lol

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Luis Cruz

Lewis and Tyson WERE friends, maybe not best friends or brothers but friends. It wasn't just a week thing. They were sparring when they were younger, when Tyson was just a teen. Tyson is a bipolar whack job, his outbursts are to everyone, that doesn't erase a past friendship. His talk before the fight was buildup in his own sick way like he's done with others. But you saying he was afraid of him being a 'known fact' is anything but a fact unless you are Mike Tyson or he said it to you or out loud. That's just your opinion that can't be backed up with fact.

The whole Holyfield breakdown did nothing, you keep going off about other people and in this instance it was Holyfield who you said was inconsistant and whatever else but then say he had one good fight left in him because he gave Lewis hell, yea let's talk favortism shall we? Others have lost, yes, but the people from the 60s and 70s whether you agree or not were of way higher caliber than the fighters of the 80s and today, THAT'S fact. Lewis had a voice he could've spoke out, kept calling people out, if it was indeed him who was being ducked, eventually they have to answer him. He didn't voice his disapproval too much, he just let management handle everything, that's not a guy in a hurry to jump in with the other 'best' out there. Oh and there is the case that he retired before taking the rematch with Vitali which is a fight he should've had. But like you used earlier for someone else, he priced himself out and made it loud and publicly clear that it would take a lot of money to get him out to do the fight. The money was offered Vitali didn't care what he made he just wanted the fight, but Lewis still refused.

This is nothing but a defensive battle on your part because that's your favorite boxer of all time being that you have yet to deny it even though it was said a couple times now and plus part of your email address does have this in it...... "british_badboy". Nuff said. Now you want to compare boxing knowledge, let's move on and discuss today's happenings as we see and as it happens. We can debate on history as well as it comes up, there's only one person i ever met that knew more than i did it and that's the guy i told you about in my last post. You'll change your tune about me knowing nothing about this sport real quick. lol

Don't worry about my email address. Just because it has 'british_badboy' in it doesn't mean I blow british fighters, otherwise I'd be on the Hatton, Bruno, Benn, Naseem bandwagon. But I'm not and never was. You're an american citizen are you not? Does that mean I consider you biased towards american fighters? Absolutely not, so why are you judging me by my email? Just because I happened to support Lewis? You know which other heavyweights I supported throughout my life? You know how many americans and non-americans I supported? It didn't mean a damn thing to me what their nationality was or their race.
You keep hanging on to this Tyson/Lewis friendship for whatever reason. Tyson could care less whether Lewis lived or died. Their friendship sure as hell isn't the reason why Tyson relinquished the WBC heavyweight title when Lewis was his mandatory. Team Tyson sensed other easier opportunities for easy money, why go after a hungry bigger fighter when you can get an easier one?
Lewis was vocal enough as was his team and the people who promoted him. Watch the HBO telecasts of some of his fights including the pre-show for Lewis vs Shannon Briggs. They're all saying it just like I am. All of them, Ron Borges, Mike Katz, all of them. The top heavyweights were afraid to risk fighting Lewis. I wouldn't call them cowards because cowards don't compete in a sport as brutal as boxing. I'd say they were closer to being businessmen, and obviously influenced by their teams and promoters who run the show like Don King.
As for Lewis/Vitali, that was a good hard fought tough fight by both fighters. Lewis could've taken a rematch but chose not to. He retired and has been retired since February 2004. It could be called cowardice or common sense, or perhaps he chose retirement because he couldn't perform at his best any longer. But does that erase the tough hard fought battles throughout his career? Does that brand him as a gutless coward just because he was heading for 38 and decided enough was enough?
And does that make Vitali brave despite Vitali pulling the same act against his mandatory Hasim Rahman?
Holyfield was a good fighter, he gave Lewis a tough 2nd fight.
But how far removed was the WBA/IBF champion Holyfield in 1999 compared to say 1997 when he whacked Michael Moorer around all over the ring in their rematch, or when he was KO'd by Bowe in 1995?
This comes down to opinion. And every fan will believe his or her opinion is the correct one.
You already finally admitted that Bowe plainly ducked Lewis. Soon enough, you'll admit the rest of my argument once facts are presented. Despite that I've already presented them. You seemingly want the facts from somebody who is alot more relevant and important than myself. LOL!
Maybe your buddy Harold will help you out. Since he is a 'friend' or was a 'friend' of many boxers, including Lewis. What's his last name? Harold what?

[Luis Cruz]

Originally Posted by Jones

Don't worry about my email address. Just because it has 'british_badboy' in it doesn't mean I blow british fighters, otherwise I'd be on the Hatton, Bruno, Benn, Naseem bandwagon. But I'm not and never was. You're an american citizen are you not? Does that mean I consider you biased towards american fighters? Absolutely not, so why are you judging me by my email? Just because I happened to support Lewis? You know which other heavyweights I supported throughout my life? You know how many americans and non-americans I supported? It didn't mean a damn thing to me what their nationality was or their race.
You keep hanging on to this Tyson/Lewis friendship for whatever reason. Tyson could care less whether Lewis lived or died. Their friendship sure as hell isn't the reason why Tyson relinquished the WBC heavyweight title when Lewis was his mandatory. Team Tyson sensed other easier opportunities for easy money, why go after a hungry bigger fighter when you can get an easier one?
Lewis was vocal enough as was his team and the people who promoted him. Watch the HBO telecasts of some of his fights including the pre-show for Lewis vs Shannon Briggs. They're all saying it just like I am. All of them, Ron Borges, Mike Katz, all of them. The top heavyweights were afraid to risk fighting Lewis. I wouldn't call them cowards because cowards don't compete in a sport as brutal as boxing. I'd say they were closer to being businessmen, and obviously influenced by their teams and promoters who run the show like Don King.
As for Lewis/Vitali, that was a good hard fought tough fight by both fighters. Lewis could've taken a rematch but chose not to. He retired and has been retired since February 2004. It could be called cowardice or common sense, or perhaps he chose retirement because he couldn't perform at his best any longer. But does that erase the tough hard fought battles throughout his career? Does that brand him as a gutless coward just because he was heading for 38 and decided enough was enough?
And does that make Vitali brave despite Vitali pulling the same act against his mandatory Hasim Rahman?
Holyfield was a good fighter, he gave Lewis a tough 2nd fight.
But how far removed was the WBA/IBF champion Holyfield in 1999 compared to say 1997 when he whacked Michael Moorer around all over the ring in their rematch, or when he was KO'd by Bowe in 1995?
This comes down to opinion. And every fan will believe his or her opinion is the correct one.
You already finally admitted that Bowe plainly ducked Lewis. Soon enough, you'll admit the rest of my argument once facts are presented. Despite that I've already presented them. You seemingly want the facts from somebody who is alot more relevant and important than myself. LOL!
Maybe your buddy Harold will help you out. Since he is a 'friend' or was a 'friend' of many boxers, including Lewis. What's his last name? Harold what?

You gave shit for facts. Your facts are you thinking you're some kind of inside guy knowing how people feel and the politics of boxing. Your guess is as good as any average joe boxing fan. Thus making this ALL opinions. Just like Lewis isn't top 10 IMO and probably is #1 on yours. Your fan, thats that. And yes i do think it has something to do with where you're from. I'm a HUGE Cotto fan and YES it is partially because we're both Puerto Rican, i tend to root for my own, aside from Ruiz. That don't mean i don't like other fighters, but having the same heritage does persuade people and if you deny it, you're lying.

I won't say my friend's full name until i see him, just outta respect for him. He probably won't mind but i just want to be sure. I could REALLY give two shits if you believe me or not about him but if you knew Lewis like you claim you should already know his last name. He wasn't just his 'friend', he helped train him, i believe mostly in the Poconos which is 45 mins from here at Manny's gym. Here's another hint, he boxed pro from 83-88 and was 19-1 with 15kos. Yea he is a lot more relevant than you, because the stuff he knows you couldn't possibly know unless you were on the inside and he has all kinds of pics he showed me to prove it as well.

Oh and i bet you are a HUGE Ricky Hatton fan as well. lol

Like i said before when there are other topics we'll see how much knowledge you have of this sport then, not just Lennox Lewis.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Luis Cruz

You gave shit for facts. Your facts are you thinking you're some kind of inside guy knowing how people feel and the politics of boxing. Your guess is as good as any average joe boxing fan. Thus making this ALL opinions. Just like Lewis isn't top 10 IMO and probably is #1 on yours. Your fan, thats that. And yes i do think it has something to do with where you're from. I'm a HUGE Cotto fan and YES it is partially because we're both Puerto Rican, i tend to root for my own, aside from Ruiz. That don't mean i don't like other fighters, but having the same heritage does persuade people and if you deny it, you're lying.

I won't say my friend's full name until i see him, just outta respect for him. He probably won't mind but i just want to be sure. I could REALLY give two shits if you believe me or not about him but if you knew Lewis like you claim you should already know his last name. He wasn't just his 'friend', he helped train him, i believe mostly in the Poconos which is 45 mins from here at Manny's gym. Here's another hint, he boxed pro from 83-88 and was 19-1 with 15kos. Yea he is a lot more relevant than you, because the stuff he knows you couldn't possibly know unless you were on the inside and he has all kinds of pics he showed me to prove it as well.

Oh and i bet you are a HUGE Ricky Hatton fan as well. lol

Like i said before when there are other topics we'll see how much knowledge you have of this sport then, not just Lennox Lewis.

Harold Knight. Yes, now I know, Lewis' long time assistant trainer. There's a man who'll tell you the deal on Lewis. Show Mr.Knight your first two posts, Luis. Print it out but don't tell him that YOU wrote it. Just tell him it was from some anonymous internet guy cause he might slap you in the face for writing such junk. LOL!
He's going to address the points that you made. You're very own statements:

- "He was around when all these guys were in their prime, he was just tucked away safely staying away letting them fight each other while he padded his record in his country."

- "he didn't take on formidable opponents until they past their prime, a bunch of them."

- "He really wasn't that great of a fighter. Him and Bowe i believe started their careers around the same time so there's no excuse for him to wait so long to fight Holyfield"

- "His biggest win was Vitali Klitschko who WAS in his prime but even that fight he was losing and was stopped from a cut"

- "He was an average boxer among a list of greats."

- "Tyson probably didn't face him because they trained together, they were friends"

- "There were too many great fighters out there to place Lewis anywhere in the top 10."

- "This Holyfield pricing himself out with costs of $20,$25, and $30 mil is bullshit. That kind of money WOULD NOT have been made back then for them to fight. Yet you insist they gave it to him and he kept going up past 30 until they refused, THAT'S crap."

You can show Mr.Knight MY posts too if you like. I'm more than happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. I know I'm not perfect and sure, I could be wrong with some things. But we'll let Mr.Knight clarify everything for us. I just hope he doesn't play favourites. Afterall, he's not on Lewis' payroll anymore. LOL!!!!

[Luis Cruz]

Originally Posted by Jones

Harold Knight. Yes, now I know, Lewis' long time assistant trainer. There's a man who'll tell you the deal on Lewis. Show Mr.Knight your first two posts, Luis. Print it out but don't tell him that YOU wrote it. Just tell him it was from some anonymous internet guy cause he might slap you in the face for writing such junk. LOL!
He's going to address the points that you made. You're very own statements:

- "He was around when all these guys were in their prime, he was just tucked away safely staying away letting them fight each other while he padded his record in his country."

- "he didn't take on formidable opponents until they past their prime, a bunch of them."

- "He really wasn't that great of a fighter. Him and Bowe i believe started their careers around the same time so there's no excuse for him to wait so long to fight Holyfield"

- "His biggest win was Vitali Klitschko who WAS in his prime but even that fight he was losing and was stopped from a cut"

- "He was an average boxer among a list of greats."

- "Tyson probably didn't face him because they trained together, they were friends"

- "There were too many great fighters out there to place Lewis anywhere in the top 10."

- "This Holyfield pricing himself out with costs of $20,$25, and $30 mil is bullshit. That kind of money WOULD NOT have been made back then for them to fight. Yet you insist they gave it to him and he kept going up past 30 until they refused, THAT'S crap."

You can show Mr.Knight MY posts too if you like. I'm more than happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. I know I'm not perfect and sure, I could be wrong with some things. But we'll let Mr.Knight clarify everything for us. I just hope he doesn't play favourites. Afterall, he's not on Lewis' payroll anymore. LOL!!!!

You're 'LOL''s are disturbing for some reason. But i see you did some googling and found his name, otherwise you would've known already. I won't show him any posts, i'm going to ask him what he thinks of this topic and pretty much how Lewis's career played out. I'll see what he says and then show him these posts, whether he agrees or not. You make that last comment like you're already prepared to say "oh he's just saying that cause he don't know me and is friend's with you", looking for excuses already. He might agree with you and in fact i'm actually thinking the opposite in that he's going to be bias because of his relationship with Lewis and of course back him up, but he'll tell the truth on all the issues regardless. Oh and tell him i don't know my boxing, he'll be sure to give you a real life "LOL".

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Luis Cruz

You're 'LOL''s are disturbing for some reason. But i see you did some googling and found his name, otherwise you would've known already. I won't show him any posts, i'm going to ask him what he thinks of this topic and pretty much how Lewis's career played out. I'll see what he says and then show him these posts, whether he agrees or not. You make that last comment like you're already prepared to say "oh he's just saying that cause he don't know me and is friend's with you", looking for excuses already. He might agree with you and in fact i'm actually thinking the opposite in that he's going to be bias because of his relationship with Lewis and of course back him up, but he'll tell the truth on all the issues regardless. Oh and tell him i don't know my boxing, he'll be sure to give you a real life "LOL".

Why would have I known already Luis? Why would I have remembered Harold's name off the top of my head? Would you have remembered his name if you never knew him personally? Can you off the top of your head throw out all the names of the assistant trainers of the majority of heavyweight champs? Maybe I should read the Encyclopedia of Boxing, and learn everything there is to know and then come on here and act like Max Kellerman where I can even name the pets of every fighter who ever fought. Sorry, I'm not that interested.
Back to the subject, sure...have a chat with Knight and ask him for his thoughts. He can call my posts BS and consider you the smart one. But I highly doubt he's going to pat you on the back for your intelligent comments about Lewis being tucked away safely and waiting for fighters to get old before he made his move. And I sure don't think he's going to agree with you about Lewis not having a place in the top 20, other than an honourable mention.
For all I know, Knight will probably consider us both as being ignorant on the subject. Just as long as we can cut the confusion

[Luis Cruz]

Originally Posted by Jones

Why would have I known already Luis? Why would I have remembered Harold's name off the top of my head? Would you have remembered his name if you never knew him personally? Can you off the top of your head throw out all the names of the assistant trainers of the majority of heavyweight champs? Maybe I should read the Encyclopedia of Boxing, and learn everything there is to know and then come on here and act like Max Kellerman where I can even name the pets of every fighter who ever fought. Sorry, I'm not that interested.
Back to the subject, sure...have a chat with Knight and ask him for his thoughts. He can call my posts BS and consider you the smart one. But I highly doubt he's going to pat you on the back for your intelligent comments about Lewis being tucked away safely and waiting for fighters to get old before he made his move. And I sure don't think he's going to agree with you about Lewis not having a place in the top 20, other than an honourable mention.
For all I know, Knight will probably consider us both as being ignorant on the subject. Just as long as we can cut the confusion

You said his name like it just popped into your head and there was no searching involved, that's why i said that.

I'm anticipating a long indepth experience when i ask him about his thoughts. I'm also going to ask him where he ranks him on the all time list and if i think it's too high i'll debate it with him. And yes he'll for sure say things that no one knows unless they were associated with him. He's the only person i have ever come across that no matter what i say or bring up he's right there with me and knows exactly what i'm talking about. I usually lose people when talking history or about very yound up and comers, i have yet to lose him. When it comes to detailing an upcoming fight though, i have had better breakdowns on strategy and gameplans fighters should implement, i even managed to impress him. I'll let you know when we talk and what he says.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Luis Cruz

You said his name like it just popped into your head and there was no searching involved, that's why i said that.

I'm anticipating a long indepth experience when i ask him about his thoughts. I'm also going to ask him where he ranks him on the all time list and if i think it's too high i'll debate it with him. And yes he'll for sure say things that no one knows unless they were associated with him. He's the only person i have ever come across that no matter what i say or bring up he's right there with me and knows exactly what i'm talking about. I usually lose people when talking history or about very yound up and comers, i have yet to lose him. When it comes to detailing an upcoming fight though, i have had better breakdowns on strategy and gameplans fighters should implement, i even managed to impress him. I'll let you know when we talk and what he says.

That'd be excellent. Whether he agrees or disagrees with me, it's a good chance for me to get some details from a man who played a big role in helping guide Lewis to the championship. He deserves much credit for his role. It's ignorant and I'll admit 'stupid' of me that I didn't take enough interest to know his name. Seeing as how instrumental he was in Lewis' success, I figured he would've gotten more attention. But then again, nobody in a camp gets attention outside of the head trainer. That man being Manny Steward whom I respect alot for what he's done in the sport. I guess the one positive about Lewis is he kept good people around him in his corner. I missed my chance in meeting Lewis when he came up here in Castlemore in 99. His mother lived here for a time, and Lewis used this area as his hangout for a short spell. He lived 25 minutes walking distance from me. I was up in Brampton, he was up in Castlemore. So from my house, I'd probably go down North Park drive, take a left on Torbram, and go straight. 6 minutes away by car. I met George Chuvalo though briefly. He went school to school deliering speeches on drug awareness. His personal story is definitely one to know.

[Salvy_Mic]

Wow, this thread went from vitriol to civility in no time. I'm almost impressed, hah.

Damn, Harold Knight. Sadly, when Luis said Harold, I started thinking Harold Lederman. Silly me. Anyway, keep this up guys. I've got a bag of popcorn here, and am thoroughly entertained.