Lennox Lewis - Why is he so overlooked?

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Afro Samurai

I was watching ESPN Who's Number One? the other day Top 20 Boxers

They had Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson on the list.. no Lennox Lewis, they mentioned honorable mentions... no Lennox Lewis. So they put two boxers he has beaten over him and dont even mention him at all.. and if you google Top Boxers of all-time you'll occasionally see a Mike Tyson or Evander, and Lennox is no where in SIGHT! Why is this? what was it about Lennox that leaves him out of these discussions but yet includes Boxers he has beaten?

There aren't even 10 heavyweight boxers ahead of Lewis who accomplished what he accomplished in his 14 year professional career. So to say that he didn't even get a place in the top 20 is beyond absurd. Who did they list in the top 20? Hopefully not guys like Norton, Leon Spinks and them. They seem to have a hard on for anybody who ever gave Ali a tough fight. And it's always been known that ESPN has had an infatuation with Ali and the boxers of the 60s and 70s.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Salvy_Mic

Just to add what Luis and Hustla said, but part of the reason Lennox is not considered one of the all-time great heavyweights are the shocking losses he suffered at the hands of Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. Sure, he got his wins back, but those were fights he should have won dominantly the first time around. Sure, Ali was upset, but until his loss to Leon Spinks (when Ali was already declining), the only losses in his career were to another legend, Joe Frazier, and one of the more underrated heavyweight champs, Ken Norton, both of whom were in their own primes.

Difference is, at least Lewis went back in there and beat Rahman and McCall. Did Tyson avenge his loss to Buster Douglas? Did he avenge against Holyfield? Or even those tomato cans he handpicked but ended up losing to. You can't use one scenario to deny Lewis' place in history and then ignore that same scenario for Tyson. Lewis avenged his losses, Tyson didn't. But yet Tyson has a place in history, but ESPN decides to decline mentioning Lewis despite him winning the Olympic Gold medal, Commonwealth Heavyweight Title, 14 successful World Heavyweight title defenses, along with unifying the WBA, WBC, and IBF championships, and beating every mandatory contender in his career, and avenging every loss.
Whatever!

[Salvy_Mic]

Originally Posted by Jones

Difference is, at least Lewis went back in there and beat Rahman and McCall. Did Tyson avenge his loss to Buster Douglas? Did he avenge against Holyfield? Or even those tomato cans he handpicked but ended up losing to. You can't use one scenario to deny Lewis' place in history and then ignore that same scenario for Tyson. Lewis avenged his losses, Tyson didn't. But yet Tyson has a place in history, but ESPN decides to decline mentioning Lewis despite him winning the Olympic Gold medal, Commonwealth Heavyweight Title, 14 successful World Heavyweight title defenses, along with unifying the WBA, WBC, and IBF championships, and beating every mandatory contender in his career, and avenging every loss.
Whatever!

Lennox, is that you? Just kidding, but God damn, why are you so pissed off for Lewis' sake?

Anyway, I still stand by what I posted earlier. One problem I had with Lewis certainly wasn't with his fight selection (which, as you mentioned earlier, wasn't totally in his hands), but how he approached the McCalls and the Rahmans when he did fight him. I dunno, but slacking off your training because your overlooking someone just never appealed to me, and frankly, he deserved to lose those fights the first time around because of that attitude. I know he got the wins back (the Rahman one was sheer beauty, but the McCall rematch, as you know, must be about the most hollow win of Lewis' career).

Here's where I may have been a little persuaded by the information, and I do wanna thank you for bringing it up, but I forgot how old Lennox is and was around the time he fought Holyfield. They were pretty close to the same age, and if truth be told, neither of them were in their prime, just that Lennox had a lot more to offer at his advanced age then Holyfield did. Same with the Tyson fight.

I dunno if it's the American bias or anything, but another of the main reasons that Lennox doesn't make this mythical top 20 list is because somehow, he never quite captured the imagination of boxing fans like any of the guys on the top 20 list did. Lewis was always just a bit on the boring side, and none of his fights (asides from the Holyfield and Tyson fights and his two upset losses) ever made any big shockwaves in the boxing landscape. Lennox Lewis was just always there, the same way Floyd Mayweather is just always there.

Just to close out, I DO think Lennox Lewis was an exceptional boxer, and one of the best heavyweights ever. He could make a top 10 heavy list, but he'll never crack a top 5, in my opinion. The top 5 belongs to Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, and Joe Frazier (usually, sometimes Foreman). And a top 10 boxers of all time, any weight class, well, that for me is Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Leonard, Robinson, Pep, Chavez, Duran, and Hagler.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Salvy_Mic

Lennox, is that you? Just kidding, but God damn, why are you so pissed off for Lewis' sake?

Anyway, I still stand by what I posted earlier. One problem I had with Lewis certainly wasn't with his fight selection (which, as you mentioned earlier, wasn't totally in his hands), but how he approached the McCalls and the Rahmans when he did fight him. I dunno, but slacking off your training because your overlooking someone just never appealed to me, and frankly, he deserved to lose those fights the first time around because of that attitude. I know he got the wins back (the Rahman one was sheer beauty, but the McCall rematch, as you know, must be about the most hollow win of Lewis' career).

Here's where I may have been a little persuaded by the information, and I do wanna thank you for bringing it up, but I forgot how old Lennox is and was around the time he fought Holyfield. They were pretty close to the same age, and if truth be told, neither of them were in their prime, just that Lennox had a lot more to offer at his advanced age then Holyfield did. Same with the Tyson fight.

I dunno if it's the American bias or anything, but another of the main reasons that Lennox doesn't make this mythical top 20 list is because somehow, he never quite captured the imagination of boxing fans like any of the guys on the top 20 list did. Lewis was always just a bit on the boring side, and none of his fights (asides from the Holyfield and Tyson fights and his two upset losses) ever made any big shockwaves in the boxing landscape. Lennox Lewis was just always there, the same way Floyd Mayweather is just always there.

Just to close out, I DO think Lennox Lewis was an exceptional boxer, and one of the best heavyweights ever. He could make a top 10 heavy list, but he'll never crack a top 5, in my opinion. The top 5 belongs to Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Rocky Marciano, and Joe Frazier (usually, sometimes Foreman). And a top 10 boxers of all time, any weight class, well, that for me is Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Leonard, Robinson, Pep, Chavez, Duran, and Hagler.

I don't disagree with your points. I too am guilty of turning a blind eye to those boxers who never captured my imagination at all, but I would never disregard their skill level.
I feel Lewis did enough to get placement in a top 10 or 12 at the very least. To deny him top 20 is beyond ridiculous and is absolutely biased.
Another thing, sure his fights weren't the most impressive and he didn't have many wars like Holyfield, Frazier, Ali and the like. But to say he was boring, well I think if one had followed his career as it enfolded, they would have a very different opinion. One only needs to see a handful of his best fights to realize that he gave as good as he got when the fight was brought to him. Many of his fights did have placement in "Heavyweight Fight of the Year" discussions. From his all out wars with Ray Mercer and Vitali Klitschko, to his highlight reel KOs against Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golota, Francois Botha, and Hasim Rahman, to his flawless top notch boxing performances against Tommy Morrison and David Tua. He fought the best fighters at the time when these fighters were at the very top of their game at the top of the rankings, with the exception of Tyson and Holyfield. Both Tyson and Holyfield, for reasons I already stated, chose to fight Lewis only for the payday and not for the inclination of unifying the titles, despite what they might sugarcoat their words with today if the topic came up. Why risk going after a 6'5, 250 man with that kind of power and skill level when you can easily go after lesser fighters for good money and stay champ? That's the thing about boxing's dirty business, fighters just pick and choose who the hell they want to fight. Same thing has been happening with Floyd Mayweather Jr who declined an $8 million payday against Margarito to take on the lesser Baldomir for just as much or a tiny bit less.
That's how boxing is run, and fans are blind to the backstage antics of these promoters who try to protect their investment, the same way Rock Newman tried to protect Riddick Bowe from risking his titles against Lewis when Lewis was his mandatory challenger. So they ducked Lewis and gave up the WBC belt to go and fight 2 old men who had no business even boxing at that stage in their lives. But the majority of fans bought the story as being that Lennox Lewis was safely tucked away and hidden while these big superstars were duking it out. It shows Luis Cruz's ignorance on the topic. He's the prime example of these types of fans who don't know what they're talking about because they never paid attention to these events as they enfolded back in the day.
Just like today in the UFC, what would life be like for Chuck Liddell if Tito had never fought him? We all know that Tito ducked Chuck and tried to use the friendship excuse in order to sabotage the fight and keep hold of his title despite Chuck being the rightful contender. And what would've happened if they had never fought? The ignorant Tito Ortiz fans would be going "Chuck ducked Tito!" When we know very well this is absolute rubbish!
That's how alot of fans are, they don't have a clue. That's reflective of Lewis' career where promoters tried to keep him away from their investments. Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe....all 3 men wanted nothing to do with Lewis, and both Don King and Rock Newman made sure that Lewis would not get in their way despite being the rightful contender for the belts that were held by these fighters. It has absoluely NOTHING to do with Lewis was tucked away safely as Luis Cruz alluded to, ignorantly. That's all I'm saying.

[Luis Cruz]

Originally Posted by Jones

I don't disagree with your points. I too am guilty of turning a blind eye to those boxers who never captured my imagination at all, but I would never disregard their skill level.
I feel Lewis did enough to get placement in a top 10 or 12 at the very least. To deny him top 20 is beyond ridiculous and is absolutely biased.
Another thing, sure his fights weren't the most impressive and he didn't have many wars like Holyfield, Frazier, Ali and the like. But to say he was boring, well I think if one had followed his career as it enfolded, they would have a very different opinion. One only needs to see a handful of his best fights to realize that he gave as good as he got when the fight was brought to him. Many of his fights did have placement in "Heavyweight Fight of the Year" discussions. From his all out wars with Ray Mercer and Vitali Klitschko, to his highlight reel KOs against Razor Ruddock, Andrew Golota, Francois Botha, and Hasim Rahman, to his flawless top notch boxing performances against Tommy Morrison and David Tua. He fought the best fighters at the time when these fighters were at the very top of their game at the top of the rankings, with the exception of Tyson and Holyfield. Both Tyson and Holyfield, for reasons I already stated, chose to fight Lewis only for the payday and not for the inclination of unifying the titles, despite what they might sugarcoat their words with today if the topic came up. Why risk going after a 6'5, 250 man with that kind of power and skill level when you can easily go after lesser fighters for good money and stay champ? That's the thing about boxing's dirty business, fighters just pick and choose who the hell they want to fight. Same thing has been happening with Floyd Mayweather Jr who declined an $8 million payday against Margarito to take on the lesser Baldomir for just as much or a tiny bit less.
That's how boxing is run, and fans are blind to the backstage antics of these promoters who try to protect their investment, the same way Rock Newman tried to protect Riddick Bowe from risking his titles against Lewis when Lewis was his mandatory challenger. So they ducked Lewis and gave up the WBC belt to go and fight 2 old men who had no business even boxing at that stage in their lives. But the majority of fans bought the story as being that Lennox Lewis was safely tucked away and hidden while these big superstars were duking it out. It shows Luis Cruz's ignorance on the topic. He's the prime example of these types of fans who don't know what they're talking about because they never paid attention to these events as they enfolded back in the day.
Just like today in the UFC, what would life be like for Chuck Liddell if Tito had never fought him? We all know that Tito ducked Chuck and tried to use the friendship excuse in order to sabotage the fight and keep hold of his title despite Chuck being the rightful contender. And what would've happened if they had never fought? The ignorant Tito Ortiz fans would be going "Chuck ducked Tito!" When we know very well this is absolute rubbish!
That's how alot of fans are, they don't have a clue. That's reflective of Lewis' career where promoters tried to keep him away from their investments. Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe....all 3 men wanted nothing to do with Lewis, and both Don King and Rock Newman made sure that Lewis would not get in their way despite being the rightful contender for the belts that were held by these fighters. It has absoluely NOTHING to do with Lewis was tucked away safely as Luis Cruz alluded to, ignorantly. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not going to read your storybooks of your favorite boxer but i caught the end and the only person who actually didn't fight Lewis was Bowe and he was stripped for it. Tyson probably didn't face him because they trained together, they were friends. Holyfield was out there IN HIS PRIME. Just the fact that he could barely handle Holyfield well out of his prime shows he wasn't that skilled or that great of a fighter. I won't even comment on the Rahman fight, he shouldn't even be in the picture. There were too many great fighters out there to place Lewis anywhere in the top 10.

[Luis Cruz]

Originally Posted by Jones

LOL!!!! I think you should stick to the MMA section, Luis. You obviously don't know jack f*ck about boxing, let alone Lennox Lewis and the era he fought in. You know nothing. You weren't watching boxing back in his day when he was fighting. At least that's what it seems like by reading your ignorant post. Everything you mentioned in your post is completely false. 100% complete crap that you just posted.
Read up on your boxing history my friend, you'll learn something. Find some of those old Ring Magazines, visit some of the good boxing websites out there. You'll learn. And when you learn, you'll come back here and read your post and then smack yourself for how ignorant you were with your original post.

Whatever you want to debate you let me know. It didn't take me a book to explain myself. You're going off of things you THINK you knew about the inside of the game, so unless you were actually there and worked inside, PROVE IT.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Luis Cruz

I'm not going to read your storybooks of your favorite boxer but i caught the end and the only person who actually didn't fight Lewis was Bowe and he was stripped for it. Tyson probably didn't face him because they trained together, they were friends. Holyfield was out there IN HIS PRIME. Just the fact that he could barely handle Holyfield well out of his prime shows he wasn't that skilled or that great of a fighter. I won't even comment on the Rahman fight, he shouldn't even be in the picture. There were too many great fighters out there to place Lewis anywhere in the top 10.

I was expecting this reply from you. Not only do you show complete ignorance in your original reply, but you show complete ignorance in your response while clinging onto an argument filled with "probably's". Probably this, probably that. You skipped over my post because it has too much truth for you to handle. But you still wanted to get your last word in while covering your eyes and scrolling onward. Ignorance! Kinda like the typical drunk UFC fans in attendance who boo all the action despite the skill level on display.
As again, this post of yours is filled with complete crap which I can throw back in your face with facts. I just gave you the full story on why Tyson ducked Lennox Lewis in 1996 but yet you stick to your theory of "Uh...Tyson probably didn't want to fight cause they were friends!"
Go back to the mma section. This topic and the sport itself is out of your league.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Luis Cruz

Whatever you want to debate you let me know. It didn't take me a book to explain myself. You're going off of things you THINK you knew about the inside of the game, so unless you were actually there and worked inside, PROVE IT.

I was watching the sport since 86. I watched Lewis fight in the Olympics, I saw the prime days of these boxers. I saw the BS that went on between Bowe and Lewis, I saw the actions of Tyson refusing to meet his mandatory in 96, I saw Holyfield stall for 2 years in getting the Lewis fight made.
What more can I prove to you? I gave you the complete rundown. I didn't think I knew them, I knew them period. Don't try and play this "Prove it" game.
Try reading my original posts, it's all right there. Promoters manipulate the rankings and pay fees to the head of the commission in order to get a fighter shot up in the rankings. How do you think Don King managed to get a club fighter named McNeely into the WBA rankings? He paid off the boss of the commission with underhanded tactics. It's a big joke the sport is. It's not like tennis where a computer decides who you compete against.

[Luis Cruz]

Ok and i've been watching this sport since the early 80s. PLUS i have a video library filled in my head of old fights that i've watched on espn classics and anywhere else i had access to them like the internet. No one, as far as i know that has better things to do, is going to sit for 2 freakin hours reading 1 PERSON'S posts. You're not that important, it has shit to do with anything that was written in it because i didn't read it like i told you the first time. You're nothing but a Lennox fanboy from what i see. lol But since you keep bringing it up i just now glanced over your first post so forgive me genius if i miss something. First of all i guess you knew nothing of Tyson and Lewis' history training together and their friendship, that wasn't pulled out of my ass, i have pics care to see? As a matter of fact i believe Tyson mentioned it at the end of their fight also, their history or at least some. This Holyfield pricing himself out with costs of $20,$25, and $30 mil is bullshit. That kind of money WOULD NOT have been made back then for them to fight. Yet you insist they gave it to him and he kept going up past 30 until they refused, THAT'S crap. The whole Tyson argument was meaningless so i didn't really read that part, Tyson didn't have great competition either and i seen him struggle against a decent boxer early in his career, he won by knockout eventually but struggled all the way until that point and actually seemed as he was going to lose. That's why i chuckle at times when people ask who would win between him and Ali in their primes. So that was just you adding something that didn't even apply to this. And since you brought it up, yeah Vitali was not great either. Better than his brother, yes but not a great fighter. He had size in a very mediorce division and he was handing Lewis his ass until they stopped it for the cut. And don't even get me started on Rahman and McCall, two less than stellar fighters he lost to. Mercer a very average fighter gave him all he could handle along with an OLD out of prime Holyfield. People might say but Lewis was old too, bullshit. Holyfield aged quicker because he fought wars. Plus Lewis like some people got better with age (Randy Couture) plus he had Manny takeover his training. He's not in my top 10 of all time and obviously i'm not the only one. I'm assuming he's your favorite boxer at how defensive you seem you need to get to defend him, that's fine but you need to chill out with the name calling bullshit, we don't roll like that around here. Feel free to bash all you want with facts, that's all good but leave it at that. I will say this, i was never a fan of his for whatever reason he just did nothing for me when i watched him fight, BUT had Manny trained him from the get go i truly believe he could've broke the top 10 of all time because of his skills. He was two different fighters pre Manny era and when Manny took over. He tightened up his game A LOT. You don't think i know boxing, stick around this forum.

Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.

[Jones]

Originally Posted by Luis Cruz

Ok and i've been watching this sport since the early 80s. PLUS i have a video library filled in my head of old fights that i've watched on espn classics and anywhere else i had access to them like the internet. No one, as far as i know that has better things to do, is going to sit for 2 freakin hours reading 1 PERSON'S posts. You're not that important, it has shit to do with anything that was written in it because i didn't read it like i told you the first time. You're nothing but a Lennox fanboy from what i see. lol But since you keep bringing it up i just now glanced over your first post so forgive me genius if i miss something. First of all i guess you knew nothing of Tyson and Lewis' history training together and their friendship, that wasn't pulled out of my ass, i have pics care to see? As a matter of fact i believe Tyson mentioned it at the end of their fight also, their history or at least some. This Holyfield pricing himself out with costs of $20,$25, and $30 mil is bullshit. That kind of money WOULD NOT have been made back then for them to fight. Yet you insist they gave it to him and he kept going up past 30 until they refused, THAT'S crap. The whole Tyson argument was meaningless so i didn't really read that part, Tyson didn't have great competition either and i seen him struggle against a decent boxer early in his career, he won by knockout eventually but struggled all the way until that point and actually seemed as he was going to lose. That's why i chuckle at times when people ask who would win between him and Ali in their primes. So that was just you adding something that didn't even apply to this. And since you brought it up, yeah Vitali was not great either. Better than his brother, yes but not a great fighter. He had size in a very mediorce division and he was handing Lewis his ass until they stopped it for the cut. And don't even get me started on Rahman and McCall, two less than stellar fighters he lost to. Mercer a very average fighter gave him all he could handle along with an OLD out of prime Holyfield. People might say but Lewis was old too, bullshit. Holyfield aged quicker because he fought wars. Plus Lewis like some people got better with age (Randy Couture) plus he had Manny takeover his training. He's not in my top 10 of all time and obviously i'm not the only one. I'm assuming he's your favorite boxer at how defensive you seem you need to get to defend him, that's fine but you need to chill out with the name calling bullshit, we don't roll like that around here. Feel free to bash all you want with facts, that's all good but leave it at that. I will say this, i was never a fan of his for whatever reason he just did nothing for me when i watched him fight, BUT had Manny trained him from the get go i truly believe he could've broke the top 10 of all time because of his skills. He was two different fighters pre Manny era and when Manny took over. He tightened up his game A LOT. You don't think i know boxing, stick around this forum.

Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.

>>>Oh BTW i work at my real job with one of the guys who use to help train him, his name is Harold. He never said anything negative about him, but if ever there was some 'facts' in boxing, this guy knows. I'll be sure to get his take on this conversation when i see him again to see what he says. I can't argue with him being that he was on the inside and friends with everyone including Lewis, King, Manny, and anyone else who was a whose who of boxing from the 80s on. I'll come back and write what he tells me whether it's agreeing or disagreeing with me.<<<

Thank You! You do that. I'll be here waiting. As for Lewis' and Tyson's friendship, they were about as close as you and I. Sure, they sparred for a week in Catskill as kids and slept in the same room while Lewis was under Arnie Boehm.
If you think Lewis and Tyson were so close, would Tyson have had such disgusting verbal comments and murderous intentions towards Lewis whenever Tyson talked about him?
Look back to 2000 from Tyson's fight with Francis onward. Even when Tyson and Lewis weren't slated to meet eachother, Tyson had nothing but foul comments and utter disrespect towards him, including his quote that he would put a bullet in the back of Lewis' head.
But I guess to you, that's just all fun and games and Tyson really loved Lewis like a brother. LOL!!!!
Sure, AFTER his ass kicking, Tyson suddenly hugged and kissed Lewis like they were best buddies. There were never truly best buddies at anytime. Tyson was always afraid of meeting Lewis in the ring. It was a known fact.
As for Holyfield faring well against Lewis, sure, Holyfield managed to squeek in 1 more good performance. But why don't you take a look at his prime and see him struggle like hell and even falter against the likes of Michael Moorer. See him, in his prime, get knocked down by Bert Cooper and go through hell to get the win. Holyfield was always a very inconsistent performer. He could look great in one fight and look like sh*t in another against B level competition. Hell, he was having wars against guys who shouldn't have been giving him wars. What's he doing struggling with guys like Alex Stewart? What's he doing going 5-6 rounds with Bobby Czyz? Alot of Holyfield's career was inconsistent, he never had a period of steamrolling through the competition at heavyweight. But no fault of his, it just means he had to do alot more to win because he was a smaller man.
You can keep poking at Lewis' losses to McCall and Rahman. But if you want to turn a blind eye to the losses of the Top 20 fighters in history, then you are definitely showing favouritism and plain hatred at the same time.

I don't have anything against you for saying you didn't give a crap about Lewis. Alot of fans didn't care about Lewis. It means nothing to me. You can hate on whoever you want, I don't mind in the least. Just as long as you know the facts and don't try to lay blame on Lewis for fights not materializing.
Lewis did NOTHING to stop the fights with Bowe, Holyfield, and Tyson from happening. You said he stayed hidden in a hole being protected while these guys fought it out. That's complete rubbish and that's what I'm calling you out on.
As for everything else, hate away. It's all good.